Keystone function ... anyone used it?

Discussion in 'Olympus Cameras' started by Rambling Sam, Jul 9, 2016.

  1. Rambling Sam

    Rambling Sam Mu-43 Regular

    68
    May 27, 2016
    Reading, Berkshire, UK
    Sam
    I've been chewing the fat over trying out the Keystone function on my E-M1, as I use the perspective control functions in PaintShop Pro. The thing is, (as anyone who has used PSP or Adobe's version of this) tbecause of the way it works, you end up with an image which has white space around it, that then has to be cropped. Does this operate differently to this in how it operates? A Google search hasn't thrown up any links showing it in action, which I find is a bit strange.
     
  2. Carbonman

    Carbonman Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jul 10, 2014
    Vancouver BC
    Graham
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Rambling Sam

    Rambling Sam Mu-43 Regular

    68
    May 27, 2016
    Reading, Berkshire, UK
    Sam
    That's interesting Graham, I wasn't aware the Keystone function was also available in OV2, which reveals how much I use that! I'm putting together an example of how the PSP (and also Adobe version) Keystone effect operates and one of the issues it throws up, resizing-wise afterwards and I'll post it on here in a day or two as I have an event to go to.
     
  4. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 Top Veteran

    649
    Mar 26, 2014
    UK
    The camera, and OV3, only allow either horizontal or vertical, not both on the same photo.

    It basically does the same as Photoshop. But Photoshop can use Content Aware fill to invent the missing bits - i.e. fill in the white areas. In some cases, such as sky, it works very well.

    What is clever about the camera is that it shows you in the viewfinder, in real time, what the corrected image will look like.
     
  5. mattia

    mattia Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 3, 2012
    The Netherlands
    I either use PS, but prefer to use DxO ViewPoint for combinations with available lens profiles.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. PakkyT

    PakkyT Mu-43 Top Veteran

    767
    Jun 20, 2015
    New England
    I just started to use this feature where I even assigned one of my buttons to enable/disable it so I can force myself to use it more. I shoot RAW+JPG these days (used to be only RAW but with Oi.Share I now use RAW+JPG to be able to preview or share my photos from the application). So now when shooting things like buildings, I turn on Keystone and adjust the shot. This allows me to line up the shot correctly if I decide later to go ahead and use the keystone effect (either straight out of the camera or using OV3 to apply the effect to the RAW file). But because I shoot RAW+JPG, if for whatever reason i decide I don't want to it, I can simply edit the raw as I see fit.

    Without it, you tend to frame your building much tighter in the frame and then if you try to use the keystone effect in OV3, while you can straighten the shot, you may end up with a severely cropped version. Using the keystone on the camera allows you to frame the shot so with the cropping effect of Keystone, your building fits the frame correctly. While I don't use other applications like Lightroom or others that might also allow this sort of straightening, my guess is that using the keystone in the camera may help frame your shot for the same reasons even if you decide to edit the RAW in a different application later.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. wjiang

    wjiang Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Yip, I'm a RAW only person but use keystone in-camera for visualisation. I use ACR which ignores the in-camera effect (it has way better perspective control tools though), but it's still very useful to do in-camera to prevent shooting too tight.
     
  8. PakkyT

    PakkyT Mu-43 Top Veteran

    767
    Jun 20, 2015
    New England
    Does the camera allow you to turn on Keystone if you are shooting RAW only? I assume but your post that it does, but thought I would ask.
     
  9. Rambling Sam

    Rambling Sam Mu-43 Regular

    68
    May 27, 2016
    Reading, Berkshire, UK
    Sam
    No, Keystone can only be applied to Jpegs. The only way round this would be to take an image as a RAW, then convert it to a TIFF (which will give you the same image quality as a RAW file.) and use that in an image editor which offers perspective correction, which Paintshop Pro and some Adobe products do.
     
  10. KBeezie

    KBeezie Mu-43 Top Veteran

    697
    Sep 15, 2012
    Grand Rapids, Mi
    Karl Blessing
    I don't use the E-M1, but I do often use the perspective correction in the Adobe Camera Raw dialog often. It helps at least to take the shot as level as possible, with the newest CC 15.5 they added the ability to drag a line in spots that are supposed to be vertical or horizontal. It's much more effective quality wise than say working off a jpeg copy, but it lacks the content-aware fill of the blank space like you might get with the photomerge dialog.

    It would be easier if the keystoning was from above looking down, because then the blank space left behind would be towards the top of the frame where it may be mostly sky, and could easily do a content-aware fill at that point. When it doubt it helps to lock the exposure and focus after the first shot, and then take a couple more shots to the left and right of the subject so that you can use the photomerge feature and have enough 'excess' to crop off of.

    PS: That jpeg keystone correction right out of the camera for the E-M1 looks rather decent for in-camera.
     
  11. PakkyT

    PakkyT Mu-43 Top Veteran

    767
    Jun 20, 2015
    New England
    Yes I knew that. My question was if the camera would even allow you to turn on the keystone function if shooting RAW only (to use for framing and to save the keystone settings to the picture's exif like most other settings (WB, saturation, etc.)).
     
  12. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    I shoot raw - so nope, never used it.
     
  13. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    I only shoot RAW as well, but I love the idea of this for visualizing the effect. Whenever I shoot architecture and need to keystone correct, inevitably my crop ends up being a little bit too tight, since most scenes benefit from a bit of headroom, I find.
     
  14. barry13

    barry13 Super Moderator; Photon Wrangler

    Mar 7, 2014
    Southern California
    Barry
    All the art filters work in RAW, so I'd think this would.
    Also, the JPEG preview in the RAW file should have the effect.
     
  15. wjiang

    wjiang Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Yes, you just get a corrected JPEG as well.
     
  16. KBeezie

    KBeezie Mu-43 Top Veteran

    697
    Sep 15, 2012
    Grand Rapids, Mi
    Karl Blessing
    Well technically the art filters don't, they do for the jpeg preview, but they don't carry over into the raw unless you use Olympus' own software to convert it from Raw to rasterized format. If you use something else for raw conversion (ACR for example) the art effect nor the keystone feature would not be replicated.
     
  17. barry13

    barry13 Super Moderator; Photon Wrangler

    Mar 7, 2014
    Southern California
    Barry
    @KBeezie@KBeezie,
    @PakkyT@PakkyT had asked if keystone can be enabled (in RAW mode) for compositional or composing purposes.

    I think the answer is 'yes', right?

    Thanks
     
  18. KBeezie

    KBeezie Mu-43 Top Veteran

    697
    Sep 15, 2012
    Grand Rapids, Mi
    Karl Blessing
    In regards to ensuring you include enough surroundings not to get too cropped off when you do it yourself on the raw?

    I think I would concur if it's nearly identical in the 'stretching/shrinking'.
     
  19. bassman

    bassman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    680
    Apr 22, 2013
    New Jersey
    Scott
    I just confirmed that switching on Keystone while in Raw mode changes the camera to LN+Raw. So you'll get both an uncorrected raw file and a corrected JPEG. Very helpful for framing, even if you fix the raw image later in LR or some other processor. Be sure to make any adjustments you need using the front and rear dials before switching on keystone, as it takes over those dials.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. Ross the fiddler

    Ross the fiddler Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    This has been discussed before & for all the 'RAW' snobs (I save raw & JPEG) it is a useful function for framing for later editing in whatever raw converter program you prefer & should not be overlooked or passed up as just a JPEG gimmick. That can also apply to B&W setting too.

    Here is some further discussion on using the Keystone function in OV3 & elsewhere. Need help with Olympus Viewer 3 OV3
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
    • Like Like x 1