Just musing...Olympus+Leica+Canon=God?

[shawngibson]

I've had a LOT of cameras, and up front the E-P2 is my favourite in my hands.

I have a shoot tomorrow and she wants 24" prints. Ok the oly is out of the running for that so I borrowed my old 5D setup with 85/1.2iiL and 35/1.4L to do the job.

I almost forgot what a huge pig it is. Wow.

I'm leaning more towards a Leica everyday, but I could never afford one.

The point of this post is: why can't Olympus or someone create a full frame sensor without a mirror and no rangefinder, ie FF E-P2?

I didn't like my Olympus SP for focusing, it was a rangefinder.

Oly could take the m43 principle and build a full frame camera with live view and evf. Why not?

Did I mention the 5D is a pig? Wow.

 

[Brianetta]

Oly could take the m43 principle and build a full frame camera with live view and evf. Why not?

Because it, and all its lenses, would be twice as long in every dimension, making it all eight times heavier. I don't think that's where Olympus want to be at all.

 

[shawngibson]

Because it, and all its lenses, would be twice as long in every dimension, making it all eight times heavier. I don't think that's where Olympus want to be at all.

Not sure I get your point; full frame Leica glass is small. Even in digital. I mean compared to a FF SLR. Not sure your point is valid.

 

[Brianetta]

I'm not comparing anything to an SLR. It's simple geometry. A full frame sensor is twice as long in each dimension. This has the effect of multiplying areas by the square of 2, and multiplying volumes (and thus masses) by the cube of two, if you're going to get the same shaped camera with a lens of equivalent field of view. So, you have a sensor that's four times bigger, and a camera that's eight times bulkier.

Of course, some things won't need to be scaled in the same way (batteries, circuit boards, storage etc) so it might not end up being eight times heavier, but it will still be an appreciable increase in heft.

 

[shawngibson]

I'm not comparing anything to an SLR. It's simple geometry. A full frame sensor is twice as long in each dimension. This has the effect of multiplying areas by the square of 2, and multiplying volumes (and thus masses) by the cube of two, if you're going to get the same shaped camera with a lens of equivalent field of view. So, you have a sensor that's four times bigger, and a camera that's eight times bulkier.

Of course, some things won't need to be scaled in the same way (batteries, circuit boards, storage etc) so it might not end up being eight times heavier, but it will still be an appreciable increase in heft.

My fault. Not trying to say stuff a FF sensor in an E-P2; I'm saying build a FF body on the same principles. It will be larger, but smaller than SLR and with live view.

 

[squeegee]

could... would... should...

all different things. Here's a link to leica's anual financial report http://www.leica-corporate.com/assets/file/download.php?filename=cp_file_4966.pdf they're teetering on the verge of bankruptcy. They had to do some emergency measures back in 2005 to stay alive.

Keep in mind Olympus doesn't have as strong "high end" name as leica, olympus probably wouldn't sell as much as leica so they'd do even worst.

If we look at canon and sony... not saying they're always right but... the amount of money Canon has - mostly derived from non-ff sales, eclipses leica as a company. I believe sony recently announced it is stopping it's production of FF cameras. I'm sure these companies do their market research before arbitrarily making these decisions.

For olympus, if their market research told them they could make a good profit doing FF, I'm confident they would head that way, they do not seem to be a stubborn company that's unwilling to change.

 

[shawngibson]

That doesn't make sense to me, Sony stopping FF production? Why would they do that? Or has the smaller technology gotten that good? My ep2 takes pictures akin to my rebel 350...not even close to 5D...why would they abandon higher quality when they (sony) offer t at a decent price?

Strip out the gizmos and offer a small camera that creates awesome images, why not? Oly already paved the way

could... would... should...

all different things. Here's a link to leica's anual financial report http://www.leica-corporate.com/assets/file/download.php?filename=cp_file_4966.pdf they're teetering on the verge of bankruptcy. They had to do some emergency measures back in 2005 to stay alive.

Keep in mind Olympus doesn't have as strong "high end" name as leica, olympus probably wouldn't sell as much as leica so they'd do even worst.

If we look at canon and sony... not saying they're always right but... the amount of money Canon has - mostly derived from non-ff sales, eclipses leica as a company. I believe sony recently announced it is stopping it's production of FF cameras. I'm sure these companies do their market research before arbitrarily making these decisions.

For olympus, if their market research told them they could make a good profit doing FF, I'm confident they would head that way, they do not seem to be a stubborn company that's unwilling to change.

 

[squeegee]

That doesn't make sense to me, Sony stopping FF production? Why would they do that? Or has the smaller technology gotten that good? My ep2 takes pictures akin to my rebel 350...not even close to 5D...why would they abandon higher quality when they (sony) offer t at a decent price?

Strip out the gizmos and offer a small camera that creates awesome images, why not? Oly already paved the way

I would only assume profit margins. (If it is in deed true to begin with.) oh but sony did also declare that their mirrorless NEX's will surpass current FF image quality... yet to be delivered but they declared it...

I think the camera sector is going through some growing pains right now. There's been a lot of comparisons done between the different sizes/formats like medium to FF to aps-c to 4/3 etc... sure all the comparisons showed that the larger, the better, but the problem was the amount of difference. The quality difference was not proportional to the cost difference of these products.

Personally, I think in the near future, we'll see some of the formats go away... it's much easier to argue to keep as an example medium and 4/3 than 4/3 and aps-c or aps-c & ff because the difference is much larger. Just my opinion though.

 

[Brianetta]

Ask a random person what Canon makes, and they'll probably say printers. For Sony, they might well say televisions. These companies can afford to take risks, because they're well diversified.

Olympus aren't going to be bailed out by their dictaphones, and Leica don't even have that.

 

[shawngibson]

Ask a random person what Canon makes, and they'll probably say printers. For Sony, they might well say televisions. These companies can afford to take risks, because they're well diversified.

Olympus aren't going to be bailed out by their dictaphones, and Leica don't even have that.

But it's no risk. Take an ep2 and upsize to full frame. If oly wants to bank on a lens system, this is it. 3 good lenses plus OM support and secretly FF lenses from anyone, and they have the best camera in the world!

 

[994]

Sadly, I agree with both points. We need this camrea, and it's not going to be built. I thought Sony would be the pen to do it, but with them out of the running, nikon and canon are left battling for the high end large camera market, with seemingly no interest in the smaller camera full frame market.

If Lieca halved their price, or brout it down near $3K, I wonder if they'd greatly increase their volume. Maybe not, but at $10k, it's a very exclusive club.

Evereyone should buy a Fuji x100, just to prove a point, lol.

 

[usayit]

Completely different market as someone eluded to.

Olympus doesn't have the market presence of the likes of Canon and Nikon. They needed to bring to the table something different in order to attract a different type of consumer... hence the m4/3rds mirrorless design. Try explaining to the typical consumer the benefits of full frame and weigh it against the increased size of lenses and bodies. You'll get half of them look towards smaller offerings (P&S) and the other half will go for DSLRs from the likes of Nikon or Canon.

Incidentally... Look at sales figures in Europe and Japan. M43 market is growing much faster than in North America (US). The design and business decisions are most likely driven by those markets.... markets whose mindset isn't totally sold on the "importance" of full frame sensors.


Leica is a different story. Their offerings bring to the table a different "style" of shooting which requires a different mindset... a different type of consumer. It is also a niche product with limited sale... a different price point. The push by their customer base for a full frame M body wasn't for the same exact reasons being discussed here. Shooting with a rangefinder requires the photographer to "pre-visualize" the shot based on the focal length chosen. Remember, the photographer isn't looking through the picture taking lens as with EVF and SLR designs. As such, retraining ones mind to "pre-visualize" what a shot would look like on a crop'd sensor is a bit disconcerting especially when one spent years shooting with film. If you think about it, their loyal customer base is looking for deliverables that are not much different from the 1950s M3... There is a strong aversion to EVF, Live View, IS, AF, etc.. (not shared by me) but a strong push for FF. They essentially want the same experience that Leica has provided for over 5 decades.

Many will "want" a Leica M (for various reasons) but when they actually spent time shooting with it many just realize/accept that it isn't a good fit. Other's (like me) will find that it brings enjoyment. I can't tell you how many times I let someone borrow mine for a while and end up asking "What's the point?"

I honestly like the m43 design just the way it is.... of course hoping for continued improvements as with all others. If I want full frame, I'd look towards a Canon 5D or 1ds. If I want a rangefinder, I'd pick up a Leica. If I want a compact-better-than-P&S, I'd pick up my E-PL1. If I wanted something to throw in my pocket for quick a fun snapshots, I'd bring along a P&S.

Different tools.. different purposes... Same reason why my Leatherman multi-tool won't replace a pair of "real" pliers in my tool box nor a set of pliers in my brief case.

 

[BillN]

I suppose FF brings you back to 35mm and the use of "proper" and very good wide angle lens at "reasonable" prices

The "crop" factor is no longer a consideration

I think that if Oly and Panasonic introduced a few more practical features, i.e. focus confirm, it would help to progress the M43 format, otherwise "serious" small compacts, (LX5 and S95), will start to take away their market share

 

[shawngibson]

Oly vs. 5D from today, FWIW. I found myself using both cameras for different shots, so they both have their place (I posted these elsewhere but wanted to show my initial results):

First, the Oly:

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Here's the Canon (a bit of photoshop, the Oly is raw except a bit of sharpening...no sharpening on the 5D):

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[994]

Sadly, I agree with both points. We need this camrea, and it's not going to be built. I thought Sony would be the pen to do it, but with them out of the running, nikon and canon are left battling for the high end large camera market, with seemingly no interest in the smaller camera full frame market.

If Lieca halved their price, or brout it down near $3K, I wonder if they'd greatly increase their volume. Maybe not, but at $10k, it's a very exclusive club.

Evereyone should buy a Fuji x100, just to prove a point, lol.

It turns out the whole "Sony getting out of FF" is a myth, as there are now indications of an a950. I think Sony is still the most likely candidate for a FF compact, though I'd love to see an Oly with their styling and IBIS.

 

[Amin]

The point of this post is: why can't Olympus or someone create a full frame sensor without a mirror and no rangefinder, ie FF E-P2?

It'll be here before you know it but probably not from Olympus. I'm betting on Sony or maybe Canon.

The Leica M9 is proof that it can be done without making a huge camera or huge lenses. However, that camera requires a custom sensor to deal with light hitting the sensor at a oblique incident angle. With improving sensor technology and economies of scale, we'll see other mirrorless ILC 35mm format cameras of a similar size to the M9 (and probably even smaller if the Sony NEX5 is any indication) within a few years.

 

[tilling]

Let's also remember that sensors are getting better with time. My impression is that the advantage of other formats over 4/3 is decreasing, for example.

There are still a lot of ways that sensitivity and SNR can be increased over the next few years. At some point the convenience advantages of a smaller sensor overwhelm the traditional advantages of the full-frame except for wide angle shots.

 

[Narnian]

In my estimation a Panasonic buyout of Leica Camera AG would make the most sense. Instant FF (and bigger than FF with the S2) digital camera for Panasonic. The could then work to transfer some of the Leica caché to their other cameras.

 

[OPSSam]

It is unlikely Olympus will try to compete in the FF market. IF you have the two heavyweights dominating the FF market, while you have this majority of the m4/3 market: Why blow millions on R&D to make a new camera line when most people won't buy them anyway because Ashton Kutcher and the guys on CSI don't use them.

 

[Hikari]

I have a shoot tomorrow and she wants 24" prints. Ok the oly is out of the running for that so I borrowed my old 5D setup with 85/1.2iiL and 35/1.4L to do the job.

Why is the Olympus out? I make 24" prints from my E-P1 and they are beautiful.