Just how sharp are these M4/3 lenses?

Discussion in 'Native Lenses' started by 50orsohours, Nov 4, 2013.

  1. 50orsohours

    50orsohours Mu-43 All-Pro

    Oct 13, 2013
    Portland Oregon
    Maybe I just don't understand it, but I read over and over on this forum that the 75mm 1/8 for example is considered to be as sharp as lenses get in any format, yet on DXOmark it sits at position #253??? A total score of 27, compare to the top rated lens at 40

    Thanks!
     
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  2. flash

    flash Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Apr 29, 2010
    1 hour from Sydney Australia.
    Gordon
    Another good reason to take DXO for what it is. A single test with very limited criteria. I've had (and have) some of the best lenses ever made in the 135mm to 150mm (equiv) category. The 75mm is at the top. It's certainly sharper than the Canon 135L, as good as the Leica 135 APO telyt ($4000) and very, very close to the Sony/Zeiss 135mm f1.8.

    Ignore DXO and look at some images.

    Gordon
     
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  3. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    DxO scores need careful reading. First thing to realise is that the score will vary according to the sensor. This can make a big difference. Compare, for example, the Nikon 85/1.8 G on a D3x (35) vs the same lens on a D90 (23). Similarly, the Oly 75 scores better on the E -M5 than on the GH2. And in fact, here's the real problem. Because 4/3 sensors have lower resolution overall than FF (which matters when printed large for example), DxO tests show ALL 4/3 lenses as being lower than lenses on larger formats. In a way, this is sort of true - you need much better lenses as the sensor gets smaller to give the same result in an enlarged print.

    Secondly, the DxO scores are a mix of several measures,including the transmission. This will mark down any lens that's slower, irrespective of its sharpness.
     
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  4. Reflector

    Reflector Mu-43 Veteran

    406
    Aug 31, 2013
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  5. 50orsohours

    50orsohours Mu-43 All-Pro

    Oct 13, 2013
    Portland Oregon
    Thanks guys! I want to make it clear, that I do know that the 25/45/60/75 are very sharp period. I have the 60mm out of those. I have seen plenty of samples, but seeing the highest rated m4/3 lens (75 1.8) at #253 was a bit shocking.
     
  6. Reflector

    Reflector Mu-43 Veteran

    406
    Aug 31, 2013
  7. kevinparis

    kevinparis Cantankerous Scotsman

    Feb 12, 2010
    Gent, Belgium

    Attached Files:

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  8. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    I recommend you read the DxO explanation of their testing method (e.g this explains the sharpness score - something they call "perceptual mega pixel" - a term completely invented by DxO in preference to industry -standard MTF).
     
  9. picturewow

    picturewow Mu-43 Regular

    39
    Jul 16, 2013
    Because their resolution score also takes the sensor resolution into account. It makes sense that a top Nikon lens on 36 mp D800 has more resolution than the 75mm on a 16 mp 43 sensor.

    I find their resolution score to be quite useful actually. It brings things in perspective. With 6 mp you can print 7"x10" at around 300dpi. So if you print something like a photobook, you won't see much difference between a 6p-mpix lens and a fancy 20p-mpix lens. Atleast not resolutionwise. Of course there are other factors like bokeh, vignetting, contrast etc.
     
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  10. F/Stop

    F/Stop Mu-43 Veteran

    451
    Mar 9, 2013
    West Virginia
    Brian Y.
    well here is the new 12-40 2.8 MTF Chart...
    [​IMG]

    For sharpness you look at the orange line. This is measure at 60lpmm vs the normal 50. for contrast you look at the blue line.
    For bokeh, the closer the dashed and solid lines are, the smoother the bokeh.

    The numbers on the bottom of the chart indicate distance from the center of the image in millimeters. 0 is the center while 10 is the edge

    this chart rivals that of the 75mm 1.8, one of the sharpest lenses ever made.
    [​IMG]

    i know its two different lenses, just giving you actual measurements not just personal opinion.
     
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  11. rbelyell

    rbelyell Mu-43 Veteran

    356
    Sep 15, 2013
    Mountains of NY
    if your preference is to shoot charts and test pages, by all means adopt without question DXO findings as your guide.
     
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  12. 50orsohours

    50orsohours Mu-43 All-Pro

    Oct 13, 2013
    Portland Oregon
    You do realize that I am "questioning" their scores right?

    Sounds like someone didn't get much sleep last night.

     
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  13. kevinparis

    kevinparis Cantankerous Scotsman

    Feb 12, 2010
    Gent, Belgium
    fstop

    with all due respect.... mtf numbers, just like any numbers when it comes down to gear, be that mega pixels or whatever, mean nothing.... its about the photograph... the image, the captured moment....the camera and the lens dont make the photo...thats the photographers job.

    Yes, if you have mastered the fundamentals of exposure, composition and the reason why you are taking photographs, and you feel you wish to improve your craft, then yes explore the areas that you may think might improver your own vision.. or maybe offer better commercial opportunities

    but numbers mean nothing... most people dont crave numbers, they want the benefits those numbers bring

    Numbers can say that is is the best lens... but that means nothing if the photographer can't make a great image

    K
     
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  14. arad85

    arad85 Mu-43 Veteran

    477
    Aug 16, 2012
    The bottom line is that if you want to compare different lenses on different sensored cameras, you really have to understand what the numbers are measuring. It is normally possible to get a feel for how the system performs, but you will have to interpret each different testing methodology and understand the limitations of that particular test and what it is telling you.

    Whether doing that level of analysis excites you is another matter.....
     
  15. kponds

    kponds Mu-43 Regular

    93
    Mar 18, 2013
    Tennessee
    Sharp enough for me.

    I've owned the 135L on FF canon and I find the 75mm on m43 to be an adequate replacement. Whether it lives up to some chart nerds expectation, I honestly have no idea and I couldn't care less.

    Go rent/borrow them and actually shoot with them. If you want to measurebate on charts, m43 is probably not the right system for you anyway. m43 is about the shooting experience, not so that you can brag about how many lw/ph (or whatever the hell it's called) you can resolve.
     
  16. rbelyell

    rbelyell Mu-43 Veteran

    356
    Sep 15, 2013
    Mountains of NY
    well, truth is any system is about 'shooting experience'. and that is comprised of the physical experience using the hardware and results the hardware gives you. the question here is about results, and if we're going to rely on our own eyes in real life situations or on folks who shoot charts and screens for a living. since i'm spending the money and the time, my eyes get my vote.
     
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  17. bigal1000

    bigal1000 Mu-43 Veteran

    337
    Sep 10, 2010
    New Hampshire
    You hit the nail on the head with that post start taking photos pixel nerds and stop reading test charts life is too short.
     
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  18. 50orsohours

    50orsohours Mu-43 All-Pro

    Oct 13, 2013
    Portland Oregon
    I have taken nearly 13000 pictures in the 2 years since getting into photography. So I do my part.

    However I do not get some of the replies. Most threads on this site are "gear talk", and nothing to do with actual picture taking, yet you are telling me that I shouldn't ask my question? I think it was a pretty legitimate question from my point of you. Thankfully, some members gave the answer I was looking for, so to those: Thank you.

     
  19. 50orsohours

    50orsohours Mu-43 All-Pro

    Oct 13, 2013
    Portland Oregon
    Who are you calling pixel nerds?
     
  20. rbelyell

    rbelyell Mu-43 Veteran

    356
    Sep 15, 2013
    Mountains of NY
    50, i think youre missing something here. of course you get to ask whatever question you like. then we get to answer how we like. to me, it seemed like a pretty simple issue: do we trust test shots or our own eyes/experience. we can gussy up that pig, but in the end 'eyes vs charts' is the pig.

    your initial question resulted from puzzlement over real life sharpness juxtaposed against mediocre test results. my replies were that, if youre shooting in 'real life' vs 'test' situations, there need be no 'puzzlement' at all; as 'real life sharpness' provides the answer you seek.