Interesting comment at B&H vs Fuji

Discussion in 'Other Systems' started by pdk42, Jan 20, 2016.

  1. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    A trip to New York isn't complete without a pilgrimage to B&H so I went along today before heading back to the UK. It was pretty quiet in there so the sales guys had time to chat. If you know the store, you'll know that the u43 and Fuji cameras are next to each other.

    Anyhow, I was looking at the Fuji X cameras and asked if I could take a few shots with my own card to compare to my E-M1 which I had with me. The sales guy said "are you sure?". " Why?" I said - "well" says he, "you won't want to use your Olympus camera again once you've seen the results from Fuji". He then went on the explain how Fuji IQ blows u43 out of the water - lower noise, better color, better ergonomics etc etc.

    To prove the point, he took a shot at 6400 on an XE2 and then showed me the image on the rear screen saying how good the color and noise was. I pointed out ( and showed him) that the same test on the E-M1 gives the same results and it was impossible to judge IQ on the rear screen. He then switched to taking about how great the Fuji colours are, but when asked, admitted that he only ever shoots Jpegs.

    So, what to make of it?... I guess B&H sales guys are all individuals with their own opinions but I was genuinely surprised by the level of bias - especially with the Olympus camera no more than a foot away!
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
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  2. b_rubenstein

    b_rubenstein Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 20, 2012
    Melbourne, FL
    Having lived my first 61 years in NYC, I know that NY is the place for commercial, advertising and editorial photography. There is an area in Manhattan know as the photo district, where most of the commercial photographers had studios. Fuji has long had a reputation for professional cameras based on their medium format cameras and lenses. They also had a pro following for their DSLR cameras and a much larger pro and hipster following for cameras their current digital cameras then Olympus ever had. In NY, you had the backwards bias.
     
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  3. gr6825

    gr6825 Mu-43 Veteran

    277
    Oct 10, 2012
    What to make of it? Sounds like a camera salesman trying to sell you a camera!
     
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  4. tkbslc

    tkbslc Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    You already had an E-M1, so he couldn't sell that to you. He could convince you that you need to "upgrade" to a new Fuji kit, though..... :)

    Really, though, I worked retail sales at a PC shop a while back. You may work surrounded by loads of gear and cool toys, but they don't let you use that many of them. You might get a small discount, but it's not like you can buy every brand and compare. For most products, your knowledge consists of the same marketing spiel that the public gets.

    I'd also be wary of "bias" because often times that is based on incentives from the manufacturers. FOr example, I remember Epson was trying to gain on HP's printer market and offered us salesman $50 cash for each Epson we sold. HP's just got us normal pay. So guess which printer we really learned to love the most?
     
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  5. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    Sales people can also be enthusiasts, and you may have just heard that person's honest opinion on how they like Fuji.

    Or, as another poster said, you already had an Oly, so buy a Fuji instead!!

    Or, they are getting a spiff/kicker this month on Fuji.

    Who's to say, lol. As always, it's a free market, opinions differ, and caveat emptor!
     
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  6. dixeyk

    dixeyk Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 9, 2010
    They might have been a Fuji fan. Digital cameras do seem to generate pretty vehement fan bases. To be honest, Fuji does have awfully nice IQ and even my X-E1 was a substantially better IMHO when it came to noise, DR and low light than any m43 camera output I have seen (I'm using am E-M10 right now). I don't think I would go so far as to say better handling, ergonomics etc. are better. The X-E1 was bigger, heavier and rather brick-like. the old school dials were pretty handy and if you want to approximate the analog camera experience Fuji does a really good job with that.

    Of course there are reasons to choose any of the formats. I like Sony for shooting MF because I just like the way it works a lot more on my NEX than m43 or Fuji. I like the E-M10 with a P20 and P14 because it's a really small AF kit that does a lot of things well so its shortcomings in IQ are well worth it. Most modern cameras are good enough for me as far as IQ is concerned.
     
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  7. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    Yeah, any camera these days can output high quality ISO 6400 in good light. Yes, even M4/3: good light being the caveat. High ISO tests really need to be taken in bad light to be relevant to real world shooting.

    The other trouble is that ISO 6400 on the X-Trans Fujis is really closer to ISO 5000 or ISO 4000 on other cameras, if you actually look at matching exposures. Fujis always have longer shutter speeds at the same ISO as other cameras. So that also throws a bit of a wrench into the comparison...
     
  8. JBoot

    JBoot Mu-43 Regular

    106
    Dec 4, 2012
    Scotch Plains, NJ
    Jerry
    Paul,

    First, I hope you enjoyed NYC.

    Had a laugh when I saw your post... Do not let it get to you.... just another opinion. I know the exact sales guy you met (he uses an X-E2). His peer is the "Olympus" guy. Both great guys and I had many conversations with both of them as my NY office is just two blocks away.

    It's funny to watch them argue when someone like myself starts up that battle and nobody else is around (they are both biased ... but knowledgeable). I've also seen them work with those not in the know about m4/3 and they are very fair in their sales approach .. and have sold a few m4/3 while I was there (and they don't get commission).

    He might be right... maybe...maybe not... However, it's sort of splitting hairs as far as I see. You will find many who prefer Olympus colors to Fuji... and on and on....Who knows... who cares? Unless there is something that really bothers you with the Olympus system don't let GAS (or doubt) get to you.... it's too expensive and detracts from your focus on actually shooting.

    Everyone has their opinions. I love the Fuji cameras too... and always think about an X100T but then I just pull out my E-M5ii and 17/1.8 (always in my bag) and try to keep shooting while walking past that drugstore known as B&H!

    Ignore the noise and keep shooting.
     
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  9. Levster

    Levster Mu-43 Top Veteran

    I was swayed by the Fuji allure and bought an X-M1 to try. In testing the long exposure noise was really night and day compared to my E-M5 Mk II that I owned. In practice however I really wasn't satisfied with the results and my Astro results with an E-P5 that I now own seem to look much better to me than I was managing with the X-M1. I really couldn't figure it out, but the X-M1 results just looked messy. I also couldn't natively load the RAW files into Deep Sky Stacker for some reason. This shot below was taken with an E-P5:

    image.
     
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  10. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    Do you use Lightroom or Adobe Camera RAW to convert your files? That's a pretty common complaint, Adobe doesn't do a great job converting Fuji RAWs, and they end up looking soft and noise-reduced, like the OOC JPEGs. Supposedly it's better using some other 3rd party RAW converters, but to be honest, I am not interested in marginal image quality benefits if it means a whole new workflow and the associated hassle. Especially since a Nikon D5500 will give better results than any current Fuji sensor (maybe the XPro2 will match it?), and works just fine with Lightroom.
     
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  11. JBoot

    JBoot Mu-43 Regular

    106
    Dec 4, 2012
    Scotch Plains, NJ
    Jerry
    Levster... Wow! I'm not into astro myself but that picture is beautiful. Really beautiful color and composition. Makes me realize how small we really are.

    So, sort of to my original thought and to compliment what Turbofog just said ... the camera is just a tool to tell your story... ans so, as I sit here compositing a Bar Mitzvah album and listening to Casey Neistat on YouTube (he helps me stay creative and fresh).... it almost seems ironic that his VLOG today was about gear ... and it's just a tool for telling his story.... so, some migth find this vlog entry entertaining...

     
  12. MRM

    MRM Mu-43 Regular

    109
    Jun 9, 2013
    Seattle, WA
    Matt
    I had the opposite experience at B&H. I brought in my em-5 at the time and inquired about the ex-1 (this was several years ago) and the guy said the Fuji system wasn't in the same league as the Olympus. I know a lot has changed since then but I'm sure this comes down to personal preference. You see it with reviewers. Some like Steve huff prefer Olympus to Fuji and some sing the praises of Fuji. I wouldn't put too much stock into it as basically all cameras are putting out very good pictures. Same thing for full frame. The differences are very small and usually are only there in certain situations.
     
  13. pellicle

    pellicle Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 10, 2010
    Southport, OzTrailEYa
    pellicle
    few highly opinionated sales guys do rigorous testing (or even any testing)
     
  14. oldracer

    oldracer Mu-43 All-Pro

    Oct 1, 2010
    USA
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  15. bassman

    bassman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    680
    Apr 22, 2013
    New Jersey
    Scott
    Just to be clear ... The people at the demo stands in B&H aren't actually salespeople. They show you the gear and explain it to you, but then you have to go order it elsewhere in the store.
     
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  16. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    Are the salesman the folks who show you what it's all about, or just the one who rings up the order?
     
  17. pellicle

    pellicle Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 10, 2010
    Southport, OzTrailEYa
    pellicle
    sure they aren't ... and they don't suggest anything to you nor attempt to bias you in any way ... commission or not, they are there to help B&H sell product
     
  18. bassman

    bassman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    680
    Apr 22, 2013
    New Jersey
    Scott
    B&H has a series of four or five kiosks on the photography floor with samples of most of the current cameras from the major brands: Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Olympus, ... . The cameras are all chained down, but most have good batteries, the ILCs all have lenses, and you can actually pick them up and use the controls, take shots, etc. These stations are manned by people who can't actually sell you anything; if you decide you like that E-M5-II, they'll tell you to go to an order counter to place your order.

    (In contrast, to try a lens, you go to the ordering counter and they'll bring the one(s) you want to try over to you.)

    Of course, they're there to encourage sales.
    Of course (as stated above), they are just people with their own biases.

    But B&H has grown to be the biggest in the country by dealing fairly with their customers, and while I've had my arguments with them from time to time, I keep going back. I find them knowledgeable and, in my experience, there is absolutely no hard sell. They will often try and up-sell you, especially if you're a bit naive about the products, but I've also heard them down-sell someone - telling the customer that they would be just as happy with a cheaper model.
     
  19. drd1135

    drd1135 Zen Snapshooter

    Mar 17, 2011
    Southwest Virginia
    Steve
    I suspect your guy personally really likes Fuji. It's nice system with a particular look that many like, especially if you go straight for jpgs.
     
  20. pellicle

    pellicle Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 10, 2010
    Southport, OzTrailEYa
    pellicle
    somehow you seem be taking the stance anyone is saying anything bad about B&H

    I've bought stuff from there here in Australia *because* I prefer them to Australian stores.