1. Welcome to Mu-43.com—a friendly Micro 4/3 camera & photography discussion forum!

    If you are thinking of buying a camera or need help with your photos, you will find our forum members full of advice! Click here to join for free!

Interesting Article on ISO at DPR

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by drd1135, Aug 10, 2018.

  1. drd1135

    drd1135 Zen Snapshooter

    Mar 17, 2011
    Southwest Virginia
    Steve
    • Informative Informative x 2
  2. exakta

    exakta Mu-43 Veteran Subscribing Member

    395
    Jun 2, 2015
    Hmm, only 766 comments so far. Guess all the DPR folks are still asleep ;) 
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  3. gryphon1911

    gryphon1911 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 13, 2014
    Central Ohio, USA
    Andrew
    I'm not a fan of that article at all...i think it just will cause more confusion and arguing...and it really didn't say much other than "I don't like the way that ISO is used in digital".

    I like to learn about how things work...but in the grand scheme of things in the picture making process having some kind of standard to base your exposure against is a good thing. If someone along the way can come up with some other way of dealing with that part of the exposure triangle, I'm all for considering it.

    This most likely will be a moot point within the next 20 years anyway for newer build imaging devices as they will inevitably be using AI algorithms to determine images and exposures as clean as clean can be.
     
  4. agentlossing

    agentlossing Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Jun 26, 2013
    Andrew Lossing
    It's a very frustrating article because it picks nits but offers nothing for a solution. Very like DPR in general.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  5. ralf-11

    ralf-11 Mu-43 Veteran

    413
    Jan 16, 2017
    not well written either
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. tkbslc

    tkbslc Mu-43 Legend

    They timed it along with rumors about the new Nikon mirrorless, so perhaps Nikon has all the answers. :flypig:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Well they agree that a RAW histogram and clipping warnings would help a lot.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. bassman

    bassman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    992
    Apr 22, 2013
    New Jersey
    The Bassman
    ISO, as we use it with digital cameras, is a significantly different thing than the older concept we used with film. With film, it was a measure of how sensitive the recording medium was to light. With digital, it has nothing to do with the recording medium's sensitivity - rather, it's a measure of how bright the jpeg produced will be. This brightness (for a given quantity of light) is achieved through some combination of analog amplication of the signal captured by the sensor and digital processing. The exact nature of the manipulation is unknown to us, and presumably differs between manufacturers and perhaps camera models. Contrast this with film, where the "manipulation" (i.e. developing the film) of the "raw data" (i.e., exposed but undeveloped film) was publicly defined by the developing instructions.

    Importantly, there is no definition of ISO for raw data - it's defined solely for the jpeg output.

    It's this opaque processing, which hides the true nature of the sensor’s light capture, that prevent us from having really useful tools when using digital sensors.

    So while I might disagree with some of Butler's suggestion, I agree with his main point: ISO for digital cameras misses the point. We need a new set of tools that are designed for the new technology we use. ISO was a nice bridge from the old days, but should be retired.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. ToxicTabasco

    ToxicTabasco Mu-43 Veteran

    292
    Jul 2, 2018
    South West USA
    Interesting, and not explaining anything that I already know. Not that I'm a expert, but if you like to push cameras and software to the limits with dark night exposures, you learn a lot as you go. That experience teaches you what you can get away with, and where the limitations of a camera are. In the end, all the science behind it means nothing. And if you go by what the science indicates, you'll never really know what your camera can do unless you get out in the dark sky nights, or any other condition where you need high ISO and longer exposures, and push your gear to the limits. That's the best way to learn about ISO and what it does.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. exakta

    exakta Mu-43 Veteran Subscribing Member

    395
    Jun 2, 2015
    But what do we replace it with? All I care about is knowing how to set the exposure and ISO works fine for that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  11. drd1135

    drd1135 Zen Snapshooter

    Mar 17, 2011
    Southwest Virginia
    Steve
    Why do we need to know ISO? Set Speed and aperture and auto ISO does the rest. Most of us only think to keep iso as low as we can for noise reasons.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Drdave944

    Drdave944 Mu-43 All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Feb 2, 2012
    Now that we know that ISO has limited importance,we can move on to optimization of the important parts of the picture,dealing instead with blown and noisy parts on the picture and spend more time worrying about range of the sensor,which is the only real ares improvement which will deal with the problem. The thought process of the author is not always clear. For example,saying you get less light in a hi ISO picture,while it may be true,obscures the fact that increasing the exposure may be exactly what you don't want to do,or you get camera shake. Avoiding this was exactly why you increased the ISO.
     
  13. coffeecat

    coffeecat Mu-43 All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Aug 4, 2012
    SW England
    Rob
    @bassman@bassman - you just summarised the whole DPR article, in a lot less words, but, for me at least, your version was much easier to understand! Thanks
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. bassman

    bassman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    992
    Apr 22, 2013
    New Jersey
    The Bassman
    Thanks!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. bassman

    bassman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    992
    Apr 22, 2013
    New Jersey
    The Bassman
    So many things would be more useful, many related to raw data. First off, having something which told us how saturated the raw pixels are - the so-called raw histogram. Then settings that directly let us manage the raw pixels: why can't we directly set ETTR, for instance? In other words, let the pixels fill until the first one (or thousand, etc) fill to overflow? Perhaps we could take advantage of e-shutters at the pixel level, and shut off lightcapture at highlights while continuing for shadows, effectively increasing DR?

    Knowing the "brightness" of the camera produced jpg is useful if you shoot jpgs, which I only do while traveling and posting on my iPad.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018 at 12:53 PM
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.