If you were starting from nothing, which system would you buy?

[morphodone]

• GP lens, 24-105/4. The 105 limit would keep the lens from getting too big/heavy.
  • Nikon Z, Canon RF and Sony all have this lens.

FWIW. Nikon Z *still* does not have a 24-105 (or 24-120) lens. I had a Z6 but sold it due to the lack of lenses. I was adapting a couple of F mount lenses but that got tiresome. And since I'm forgetful, I was trying to mount the F mount 70-300 lens to the camera without the adapter. I'm lucky I didn't destroy the sensor since the Z mount is so friggin' huge.

 

[ac12]

FWIW. Nikon Z *still* does not have a 24-105 (or 24-120) lens. I had a Z6 but sold it due to the lack of lenses. I was adapting a couple of F mount lenses but that got tiresome. And since I'm forgetful, I was trying to mount the F mount 70-300 lens to the camera without the adapter. I'm lucky I didn't destroy the sensor since the Z mount is so friggin' huge.

I take that back. The 24-105 was announced and on the roadmap, but is not listed on the Nikon USA site.
24-105 is a zoom range that I would prefer for a GP lens, rather than the shorter 24-70/4.

I think the 24-105 is Nikon finally giving up on the 24-120, as too difficult to get the IQ level that they want for the Z. And backing down to a zoom range that WILL give them the IQ level that they want. Which also happens to be the same as Canon and Sony, so they loose the advantage of the wider 24-120 zoom range.
24-120 is a great zoom range, but Nikon has been fighting to get the IQ up for decades.
Hopefully Nikon keeps working in the back room to raise the IQ of the Z 24-120.

 

[morphodone]

@ac12 One other note. Sony does have a 70-200 f/4.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1380865-REG/sony_fe_70_200mm_f_4_g.html

 

[wolfie]

I started out with Practika L, interesting I got an ESO 3000 and it put off Canon DSLRs to this day! But I love their Powershots ( had about 10 at last count). However have always had Olympus at firm favourite, did try the Pentax K7 which was a nice camera but the second rate sensor and the WR failing after 13 months in the lens and body put me off them for good. Olympus really are quite distinct from everyone else.

 

[ac12]

@ac12 One other note. Sony does have a 70-200 f/4.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1380865-REG/sony_fe_70_200mm_f_4_g.html

Interesting
I did not see it in the Sony web site.
I updated the post.

 

[Saledolce]

• For travel, I might consider a longer super zoom, in the 24-200 range.
  • Nikon Z has the 24-200, Canon RF the 24-240, Sony the 24-240. All variable aperture.

It's very unfortunate none of the above is fixed aperture, but I can imagine that would have made them too big to be similar in size to the 12-100.

I will go thru some reviews and see what is the general reputation of those 3 lenses, that could be

I can add some more "results" of my research:
- I think I will definitely keep my Pen F, and maybe even rebuy an EM10ii or EM5ii. No system has the Laowa 7.5 or the Oly 45. I would not be able to replace that.
-I was very impressed by some samples taken with the Canon Eos R, Canon color science is really remarkable. The lack of stabilization initially put this system a step behind the others, I think I will have to study also that one deeply.
- two more strong points for Sony: I was able to find most of what I need available second hand. They are having a cashback up to 300 euros on the bodies, and 100 euros on some lenses.

 

[Bushboy]

No system has the Laowa 7.5

Oh yes they do... but even better!

 

[BDR-529]

While I would like the Nikon Z system.
If you are coming in fresh, as it the assumption in this thread, there may be issues with lenses.

Nikon Z-mount is the final evidence that camera industry kept shooting themselves in the foot untill they bled to death with these non-interchangeable lens mounts.

Even with the most (?) prestige name in the camera industry and 2nd largest pro ILC customer base, Nikon is struggling to find customer base for their new mirrorless FF mount because it's the umpteenth non-interchangeable variant but still serving an identical purpose. Nikon Camera Unit is already dragging down the whole company and it seems to become more and more apparent that even they couldn't afford creating an entirely new mirrorless FF ecosystem alone. They just realized it too late.

I believe that currently ongoing transition to mirrorless FF will be the final new mount that traditional ILC industry will ever introduce and this was their final chance to standardize one mount for which everyone would contribute their own interchangeable lenses. Shrinking ILC market is already so small that even all mirrorless FF sales combined are too small for sustainable business and still they intentionally split this tiny market into several microscopic fractions which forces every manufacturer to invent the wheel again.

Nikon seems to have entered into a full panic mode because the price of Z6 dropped to just 1362€ at least inside EU after they realized that if Z-mount doesn't get at least 25% market share, the whole mount will fade away and Nikon with it. Next they will simply hand out Z6 bodies on street corners for free in a desperate hope that people would then lock themselves into the system by buying Nikon Z-mount lenses for 3000€ (well, with Nikon pricing, that will be 2 lenses but anyway)

 

[John King]

@BDR-529 A sad tale, but I fear that it might just be the case.

I'm very unhappy about any of the remaining manufacturers going belly up.

We may well be left with nothing but mediocrity ... ?.

 

[BDR-529]

@BDR-529 A sad tale, but I fear that it might just be the case.

I'm very unhappy about any of the remaining manufacturers going belly up.

We may well be left with nothing but mediocrity ... ?.

As so many writers have already mentioned, no matter how good and how inexpensive the body is, nobody will buy into a new mirrorless FF mount if it doesn't have lenses.

It's like releasing a new mobile ecosystem with the best OS and best handsets in the market but with no applications, no 3rd party support (Windows Phone anyone?) and absolutely no interchangeability with any other mobile ecosystem. Camera industry did essentially release four of those when they jumped into mirrorless FF bandwagon.

That will not work out financially for anyone because camera manufacturers are not operating in the middle of exponential growth to billion units/year as smartphone industy was but in a declining niche market which is already down to few millions a year (FF ILC).

Nikon is really worst off with their Z-mount because they entered this market too late. Interestingly it looks like the design choises Nikon made have also backfired. Nikon did design what is technically the best mirrorless FF mount in the market. It has huge 55mm throat diameter and flange focal distance of only 16mm which enables Nikon to build extremely fast lenses with even light distribution up to corners.

Now it seems that 3rd party manufacturers like Sigma and Tamron are not interested to serve this Johnny come lately which has the umpteenth non-interchangeable mount system but it also looks like the existing mirrorless FF lenses which were designed for earlier Sony E-mount and L-mounts can't easily be modified to support Z-mount. Without reasonable priced 3rd party lenses it will become even harder for Nikon to gain market share with their system and they are really forced to create a full portfolio of lenses at their own cost. *)

My estimate is that in 10 years there will be several marginal (SLR) FF mount systems for professional users but only one mirrorless FF mount which has any volume worth mentioning. One of current mounts will simply become the de facto standard and others fade away or their manufacturers will simply fold.

I would bet that de facto standard will be either E-mount which has by far the best portfolio of lenses or L-mount which isn't that far behind and thanks to Pana might get video community behind them.

*) I am actually tempted to buy Z6 at this price point because it would solve my low light photo/videography problems for good and those two Nikon lenses I really need for low light are both reasonably priced. I would still use MFT for everything else ... for a long time because other Nikon lens I need for complete portfolio are insanely expensive (for me, not necessarily for their quality)

 

[AmritR]

Maybe Nikon should just introduce a new version of the DF, but now a mirrorless F-mount, with the electronics and parts of the Z6.

They might be undermining the z-series to some extend, but also not ‘breaking’ the F-mount. And you could market it as a traditional slr type, supporting decades of f-mount lenses. Grandpa’s SLR on steroids, supporting 100 million+ f-mount lenses.
Non-Nikon fanboys, eat this!

What I’m actually saying, I would like to have a DF mirrorless version for my AIS lenses. Nikon would at least have one customer
I’m certain Nikon Products will now see the light and change course because of this single forum post


(and now on yet another rainy Monday afternoon in home-office ?, I’ll try to find new ways to motivate myself, before I’m being fired)

 

[Saledolce]

Oh yes they do... but even better!

Any example would help. I'm not talking about the FL, of course they have 15mm lenses, I'm talking about the smallish package.

 

[Saledolce]

I will go thru some reviews and see what is the general reputation of those 3 lenses, that could be

None of the 3 seems to have outstanding reputation, I'd say it's not going to be the deciding factor among the 3 systems. Nikon has the lightest, similar weight as the 12-100. The other two are about 200 grams heavier.

I'll compare the 24-105s and see if one of those helps choose.

 

[BDR-529]

Maybe Nikon should just introduce a new version of the DF, but now a mirrorless F-mount, with the electronics and parts of the Z6.

They might be undermining the z-series to some extend, but also not ‘breaking’ the F-mount. And you could market it as a traditional slr type, supporting decades of f-mount lenses. Grandpa’s SLR on steroids, supporting 100 million+ f-mount lenses.

I got the part of DF which I guess is just a retro body with mirrorless technology inside but what is "mirrorless F-mount?"

F-mount was designed for the SLR world so there must always be exactly 46,5 mm distance between the sensor and any F-mount lens. F-mount doesn't care whether there really is any mirrors inside but the distance must still remain the same. So you can't just build a flat mirrorless body with a F-mount.

Z-mount requires just 16mm so it's easy to build F-mount adapter for it. This adapter is just a fancy spacer - empty tube, exactly 30,5mm long but with passtrought connectors for lens power and control signals (16mm+30,5mm = 46,5mm).

Nikon practically gives this FTZ adapter away to Z6 buyers and that provides native support for almost all F-mount lenses

Nikon could build a DF-lookalike with original F-mount but with Z6 engine inside. This would, however, be a pretty pointless product. You could save some money by just leaving out optical viewfinder components but then you end up with a very bulky camera that is mostly empty inside and can't support Z-mount optics.

 

[morphodone]

-I was very impressed by some samples taken with the Canon Eos R, Canon color science is really remarkable. The lack of stabilization initially put this system a step behind the others, I think I will have to study also that one deeply.

Keep an eye out for Canon's announcement on July 9. Supposed to be two new cameras with IBIS. Likely will push the price of the EOS R down. I am keen to check out the R6 if rumors are true. But again, the same problem with lenses exists. But with the 24-105L and the 35 mm f/1.8 I would satisfied for a while.

 

[mike3996]

Nikon could build a DF-lookalike with original F-mount but with Z6 engine inside. This would, however, be a pretty pointless product. You could save some money by just leaving out optical viewfinder components but then you end up with a very bulky camera that is mostly empty inside and can't support Z-mount optics.

With the exception that this "mirrorless F mount" could drive AF lenses.

Alternatively Nikon could introduce a more advanced FTZ adapter but I think it's not feasible to achieve in a compact adapter size...

 

[D7k1]

Panasonic G9 /Gh5 (6), 8-18, 12-35, 35-100, 50-200, 100-400 and Oly 60mm Macro.

 

[stevedo]

@D7k1 Good job in bringing the thread back on topic

I would go Oly 1.3, 12-40 pro, 40-150 pro. For UWA either Oly 8mm f1.8 or Oly 8-25 if it actually becomes real.

 

[Saledolce]

Keep an eye out for Canon's announcement on July 9. Supposed to be two new cameras with IBIS. Likely will push the price of the EOS R down. I am keen to check out the R6 if rumors are true. But again, the same problem with lenses exists. But with the 24-105L and the 35 mm f/1.8 I would satisfied for a while.

Don't want to hijack this topic too much, but I have a sense I may keep the small m43 kit (Pen and primes), sell the big m43 kit (em1.ii, pro zooms, large primes) and pocket the money for a while. A Canon with IBIS could be worth waiting for: they have a 24-105 "kit zoom" that has an excellent reputation, they have the "do it all" 24-240 lens. I will check the primes, but I would be really surprised if they don't have excellent 35/50/85 glass.

Edit, they do have excellent primes: f1.2 monsters, 3k each. I would have to live with the 35 f1.8, only prime with a reasonable pricetag as of today.

How's Canon doing with weather sealing?

 

[Ed Diaz]

Nikon seems to have entered into a full panic mode because the price of Z6 dropped to just 1362€...

Could just be the pending release of the Nikon Z5 and Canon EOS R5 and R6. Seems like the FF mirrorless war is really just starting. If the Nikon Z5 and rumored Sony A5 are released in the $1,000 range, all current FF mirrorless bodies will drop in price. And if the R5 and R6 are as good as rumored/advertised, then high end mirrorless (A9/A7Riii/iv/Z7) prices will also drop.

Earlier in this thread, I mentioned Sony would likely be my choice, simply due to 3rd party lens choices (small Samyang primes and smaller Tamron 2.8 zooms). Now I think it just makes more sense to wait and see.