If you were starting from nothing, which system would you buy?

BDR-529

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They must be thinking about it hard or even designing it already for GH6 for example. Or could they combine both somehow? Otherwise they will likely be left behind in the video department. Could result in some delays.
DFD or contrast based autofocus in general is the only autofocus that
1) does not need any support from the sensor manufacturer whatsoever in mirrorless bodies and
2) is always absolutely accurate

Problem with Panasonic DFD is never the accuracy itself. It's always 100% spot on accurate to whatever area the ******** autofocus system decided to focus on this time.

The problem is entirely in the SW which apparently uses some kind of random generator to raffle the spot to use this time but boy, will it focus on that instantly and stick to it like glue.

Based on personal experience I's say Panny DFD is extremely fond of edges of the sensor especially when someones face is filling the entire image area save for some 6 or 7 pixels of distant grass on bottom left corner. Those 6 or 7 pixels will be so sharp that you could cut a diamond with them, though.

Anyway, without an entirely new MFT sensor, panny can't create phase detection autofocus. That feature depends on the AF pixels and microlenses which are supplied by the sensor manufacturer.
 
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BDR-529

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Too bad the Canon lenses are still huge, heavy and expensive. And the R5 & R6 are huge too. Zero interest.
Did everyone somehow totally miss one essential point. It's not about the size and weight but the price just doesn't compare to MFT.

It's totally irrelevant how magnificent specs BMW 745i has compared to Scoda Octavia because it's higly unlikely that anyone will swap their Octavia to latest 7-series beemer. They are not competing in the same price range.

Best price I can find for Canon R5 body at the moment is around 4400€ (in Europe) and how many MFT owners even have a full kit that's worth over 4k€?
(Note to people who need smileys to understand when I'm joking: no need to start listing your gear here even if you meet the criteria)

The whole point of MFT was not only to be light and easy to carry but also to be less expensive ILC option with practically identical real world IQ under most conditions.

Even the R6 body is sold at 2650€ so I don't understand why on earth would anybody even bother to compare that against a kit that's based on, say 950€ Panny G9 despite the fact that they both have just 20MP sensors.

Yes, you will get better low light performance with R6 and better hit rate with your sports shots but only after you buy at least a couple of premimum lenses which already lands you somewhere north of 4000€.

That being said, thanks to it's price point Olympus M1X would have to match R6 IQ one to one and not least because Olympus pro glass carries a rather hefty price tag despite being just F4 - a decision which I never understood. Even in FF world only F2.8 or faster is considered "Pro" unless it's >300mm telephoto lens and the only area where MFT really is handicapped against FF is low light so even MFT zoom lenses should be F2 or faster if they are sold at any kind of premium.

If I had to start from zero today with something else than MFT, the only option would be based on Z6 because I would still plan to use the same amount of money to my camera kit. Z6 + Nikon 24-70 F4 goes today for less than 1800€ and Z6 specs are very hard to beat. In 1000€ price range G9 or GH5 will still top it with [email protected] but that's it and Olympus 12-40F2.8 would instantly negate any price benefit)
 
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I think in ten years time all our attention will be on AI software, available for a yearly subscription, at which you will be able to throw any digital image, from any camera of any era, which one's choice of AI software will turn into a 120MP image capable of gracing a billboard. Specialist areas such as macro and sports may be different, but almost all of the rest of us will be concentrating on composition, as the content of the image will have become the most important aspect of any photo - everything else we'll be able to manipulate from the safety of our keyboards, changing our images by altering shutter speed, aperture and ISO AFTER we have taken the photograph, and adding skies, sunsets, colours, fog, mist and other natural phenomena at will. There will be no penalty for transforming your photos with some blinding sharpness, removing or adding grain, increasing blur and bokeh, and some other shit we have not yet thought of. All our money will probably be spent on computers, RAM, graphic cards and storage systems.

You wait, it'll happen, and I give you this as an example of the way things are heading. Content is good, image is from 2011, and it's been reborn with some 2020 AI.

By 2030, the social media crowd will be in AI heaven, while the rest of us who like to shoot our kids kicking balls, or our dogs and cats stealing food, or our holidays on sandy beaches, will feel like vermin left out to desiccate on a barbed wire fence. I rather suspect a few of us old mouldy farts won't care either....

And yes, I've had a bad day. Sigh.
 

BDR-529

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I think in ten years time all our attention will be on AI software, available for a yearly subscription, at which you will be able to throw any digital image, from any camera of any era, which one's choice of AI software will turn into a 120MP image capable of gracing a billboard.
I believe you are grossly underestimating the speed of SW, especially AI development.

In 10 years you don't even need to go anywhere to take pictures you like. You just tell your AI what you need (Wife, myself and kids at the top of Eiffel tower) and presto! AI will generate a perfect 120MP for you without all the fuss of actually taking the picture yourself.

As I have tried to remind people several times when they make comparisons between FF and MFT on purely tecnical specs: photography is an art form, not just technical method of documenting objects and events. Yes, even bad art is art nonetheless. Adding pixels or two stops worth of dynamic range will not add any artistic values to average shots (not that there was much to start with) but increase in technical quality will just make it more obvious that this definitely is no fine-art photo 😁.

In 10 years, people who really like photography as a serious hobby might migrate back to 35mm B&W film and even develop it themselves which is already happening. ILC cameras and lenses have just become so technically perfect that pictures taken with them are so good that they are actually bad.

No wonder why more and more people (inluding me) are intentionally buying old crappy russian lenses and essentially destroying their IQ with all those weird distortions, lens flares and faded colour/contrast. These images just look better.
 
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BDR-529

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Today I got an email from the most expensive hight street camera shop around here. Even they have now started dumping everything that is not mirrorless FF - except MFT.

It should have been obvious for a while now that all remaining ILC manufacturers are so all in to mirrorless FF that they simply can't afford to lose any volume and economies of scale of to even their own product lines i.e. SLR and crop sensor mount models.

If I had absolutely no proper camera at the moment and I didn't care about video (which I do), there would be plenty of options available for anyone who is willing to stick to an old ILC mount for the next 10 years and then buy something entirely new. For example the least expensive FF Nikon SLR is bundled with Nikon 24-120 F4 VR and sold for less than what is the official retail price of the lens alone. Best price in Germany for this kit is already around 1000€ Even Nikon 750 is only few hundread Euros more.

After I bought Leica 12-60 for my MFT camera, I realized that this is the focal lenght which covers 3/4 of my needs and with FF low light performance at F4, overlapping fast prime lenses might not even be needed so that would be a perfect kit for a casual shooter.

Strangely there is not a single Panasonic or Olympus product on sale and the situation is pretty much the same no matter where I look inside EU. As a matter of fact they have increased the price of every MFT camera or lens I have been following. During the peak of Corona crisis GH5 was sold below 1000€ mark and now the best price I can find is over 1300€. Now even G5 is again almost 1100€ and OM M1.3 jumped back to 1500€+ price range.

I can't understand how is it possible that FF and MFT prices are going on opposite directions but this will certainly not help MFT to increase market share. It's sort of relief that retailers are not trying to get rid of MFT gear with -50% discounts as long as someone is still willing to buy them but the current situation is not very calming either.
 
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alex66

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Today I got an email from the most expensive hight street camera shop around here. Even they have now started dumping everything that is not mirrorless FF - except MFT.

It should have been obvious for a while now that all remaining ILC manufacturers are so all in to mirrorless FF that they simply can't afford to lose any volume and economies of scale of to even their own product lines i.e. SLR and crop sensor mount models.

If I had absolutely no proper camera at the moment and I didn't care about video (which I do), there would be plenty of options available for anyone who is willing to stick to an old ILC mount for the next 10 years and then buy something entirely new. For example the least expensive FF Nikon SLR is bundled with Nikon 24-120 F4 VR and sold for less than what is the official retail price of the lens alone. Best price in Germany for this kit is already around 1000€ Even Nikon 750 is only few hundread Euros more.

After I bought Leica 12-60 for my MFT camera, I realized that this is the focal lenght which covers 3/4 of my needs and with FF low light performance at F4, overlapping fast prime lenses might not even be needed so that would be a perfect kit for a casual shooter.

Strangely there is not a single Panasonic or Olympus product on sale and the situation is pretty much the same no matter where I look inside EU. As a matter of fact they have increased the price of every MFT camera or lens I have been following. During the peak of Corona crisis GH5 was sold below 1000€ mark and now the best price I can find is over 1300€. Now even G5 is again almost 1100€ and OM M1.3 jumped back to 1500€+ price range.

I can't understand how is it possible that FF and MFT prices are going on opposite directions but this will certainly not help MFT to increase market share. It's sort of relief that retailers are not trying to get rid of MFT gear with -50% discounts as long as someone is still willing to buy them but the current situation is not very calming either.
I agree and given I don't care about video have been snapping up DSLR cameras for bargain prices; Sony A380, 50mm,24mm,70-300 and 55-200 all in less than £100, then 3 Pentax bodies 8 lenses less than £300. They have been fun to work with and with the devaluation of the form I am glad I sold off my old system years ago rather than hanging on till now when I would have lost a fortune.
 
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I think in ten years time all our attention will be on AI software, available for a yearly subscription, at which you will be able to throw any digital image, from any camera of any era, which one's choice of AI software will turn into a 120MP image capable of gracing a billboard. Specialist areas such as macro and sports may be different, but almost all of the rest of us will be concentrating on composition, as the content of the image will have become the most important aspect of any photo - everything else we'll be able to manipulate from the safety of our keyboards, changing our images by altering shutter speed, aperture and ISO AFTER we have taken the photograph, and adding skies, sunsets, colours, fog, mist and other natural phenomena at will. There will be no penalty for transforming your photos with some blinding sharpness, removing or adding grain, increasing blur and bokeh, and some other shit we have not yet thought of. All our money will probably be spent on computers, RAM, graphic cards and storage systems.

You wait, it'll happen, and I give you this as an example of the way things are heading. Content is good, image is from 2011, and it's been reborn with some 2020 AI.

By 2030, the social media crowd will be in AI heaven, while the rest of us who like to shoot our kids kicking balls, or our dogs and cats stealing food, or our holidays on sandy beaches, will feel like vermin left out to desiccate on a barbed wire fence. I rather suspect a few of us old mouldy farts won't care either....

And yes, I've had a bad day. Sigh.
In ten year's time the vast majority of the population, terrified by crime, disease or the risk of missing something, will be sitting at home wearing a VR headset and never going anywhere or doing anything. A few old souls will still stumble out into the bleary sunlight and they won't care which camera they have, they'll just enjoy making pictures and chatting to each other without needing to discuss the kit. At least that's how it appears to me.
 

Petrochemist

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If I was starting completely from scratch I wouldn't have the knowledge of cameras I've built up so it would probably be a rotten choice :)

As it is I have multiple systems & combining/ swapping between them is part of the fun.
 

BDR-529

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If I was starting completely from scratch I wouldn't have the knowledge of cameras I've built up so it would probably be a rotten choice :)

As it is I have multiple systems & combining/ swapping between them is part of the fun.
You made a good point there. If I were to start from nothing and never owned ILC before, my decision might be different than if I just dump all MFT gear and start from "nothing" with the knowledge I already have.

In either case I would still have the same budget for this hobby and I would very much try to maximze the bang for the buck I get. I would not be afraid of investing into "dying" mount system since I would anyway write down this investment at shop door and only care about the pictures and video I'm able to record for the next 10 years or so.

Since I do care about video which is over 50% of what I shoot, I believe that I would still end up buying MFT because no other mount system can offer similar video specs at this price point and a full selection of inexpensive lenses at those focal lengts I need. If I had just bought a decicated 4K camcorder, I would very likely end up with one of those heavily discounted FF SLR kits which suck at video but provide excellent still picture quality for the money.

On a related note: I have been browsing through local classified adds websites where the best bargains are usually found and discovered that there are only 1 or 2 MTF owners who are indeed trying to dump their entire and brand new Olympus kits. Unfortunately even they are asking totally unrealistic prices for what is used gear sold by private person even if brand new. Their prices are higher than what you find at online local online camera stores who are official Olympus dealers.

On the other hand there seems to be a full bussload of Canon or Nikon SLR owners who are trying to do the same but they are forced to sell at substantial discount due to imbalance between supply and demand. I would really like to see their faces when after 4000€ or so they have jumped into mirrorless FF bandwagon and realized to their horror that pictures don't actually look any better than the ones taken with their old SLR gear.
 
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dimap

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I can say there’s still no uncompromising solution for light and small. Sony A7iii is the
closest with a set of smaller primes, but then it’s IBIS is the weakest (I need good one for video). Canon rf 85 f2 is huge, Nikon’s z 85 f1.8 is still bigger than their 85 1.8g: they shaved on bodies and added to the glass. Olympus 75 1.8 is still unrivalled.

Answering your question in a way: that would not be m43. Excellent system, but killed by Oly announcement. I would not be willing to miss out on the future camera developments.
 

alex66

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If I was starting completely from scratch I wouldn't have the knowledge of cameras I've built up so it would probably be a rotten choice :)

As it is I have multiple systems & combining/ swapping between them is part of the fun.
It is good to have more choice regardless of the purpose, if its for practical reasons of photographic intent or like Eggleston just fancy using that camera lens combo today. I would be sad to see m43 go just as I was to see Nikons fun and unique in some ways 1 cameras, loved the V1 till it started running through batteries like a demon.
 

WT21

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I just received a Canon M200. Yuck.

The AF is great, but it's smooth hard plastic body makes it impossible to grip, and the shutter is loud sounding and the overall experience is "cheap". I hope Panny might release one more iteration of the GX850 or GM5, that takes standard SD cards and has the 20MP sensor.
 
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If I was starting completely from scratch I wouldn't have the knowledge of cameras I've built up so it would probably be a rotten choice :)

As it is I have multiple systems & combining/ swapping between them is part of the fun.
Yes. If I was someone like that, and if I did a simple Google search I would mostly end up with low end Sony APS-C. I can't believe how many times A6000, a camera released in 2014, is still recommended across beginner photography questions on any forum/website, which of course is a poor choice by today's standard.
 

alex66

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Yes. If I was someone like that, and if I did a simple Google search I would mostly end up with low end Sony APS-C. I can't believe how many times A6000, a camera released in 2014, is still recommended across beginner photography questions on any forum/website, which of course is a poor choice by today's standard.
I normally recommend people get a G3 to dip their toe in the water without the chance of losing much cash, they have reached near bottom of their price curve and it is a great little camera. Yes there may be better but for a camera you can pick up for around £50 if you look it is a good way to work out if you want to delve deeper and 16mp is good enough. A6000 hold their value quite well considering and the range of lenses is not as good as the Fuji or m43 options, you really end up having to get FF FE lenses for them.
 
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