If you were starting from nothing, which system would you buy?

vm666

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
237
Location
Paris
This FF mirrorless war is just the reason why I have hard time deciding which system to select if I was starting from nothing today.
I was about to say the same thing.
Years ago when I decided to switch from analog to digital photography, I watched a very unstable market and I waited as I did not want to invest in a soon dead system. At that time, there was no risk of a company going out of business but there was definitely a risk of technology becoming obsolete very quickly or entire product lines being dropped (e.g. remember how Olympus dropped the 4/3 DSLR for the M4/3 MILC).
So my first digital camera was in fact a Nikon LS-50 film scanner. Then I bought a Panasonic FX100 compact camera (cute but terrible in low light), then an Olympus E-10 bridge. In 2009, I decided that technology looked stable enough and I saw a friend with the Olympus E-P1. I liked the concept and bought an E-PL1 kit (14-42 + 40-150), then a 9-18. In 2012, the E-M5 appeared and I knew I would stay with the M4/3 system.
I saw Samsung stop making camera, Nikon silently stopping its cute Nikon 1 series, Sigma struggling with the odd Foveon technology...

I don't know who will remain in the end. It is easier for a big company like Sony or Panasonic to drop their photography division, as they make many other things. Just like Olympus did. Maybe companies like Fuji or Nikon will fight more, as they are nearly dead without photography.

I think that if I started photography now, I would buy a cheap second hand camera and wait a couple of years until things calm down.
 

AmritR

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Jun 18, 2017
Messages
83
Location
Alkmaar
.... Maybe companies like Fuji or Nikon will fight more, as they are nearly dead without photography.
For what its worth. According to the dutch wiki, Fujifilm ‘Imaging Solutions’ accounts for 1/6th of the Fujifilm turn over. And that part has several products, amongst which are their digital camera’s.
I recall someone stating it was a bit of a hobby business for Fujifilm.
 

stratokaster

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
1,620
Location
Dublin, IE
Real Name
Pavel
Fujifilm is a huge chemical and biomedical company, their photography business is indeed a bit of a hobby for them.
 

RS86

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
588
Location
Finland
I found out that the R6 uses same sensor as Canon 1D X Mark III, and that DxoMark has reviewed it. It has similar performance as Nikon Z6, otherwise than the Color Depth, which seems worse.

What I find interesting is that Sony and Nikon are 24MP sensors, and Canon R6 is 20MP. I guess they had to make the pixels bigger to take the edge away from Sony in other sensors performance areas?

This is a bit conflicting as many seem to say that M43 needs more MP. And many seem to praise R6 as almost perfect camera (even before there are any proper reviews). It seems that lower MP FF is content with 20-24MP?

Personally I think 20MP is great and M43 might be just 1 stop of low-light performance away from "perfection".

(Edit. Caution with this Canon review, I just read some comments and people are saying DxoMark has some problems with this test compared to other review sites. Someone said they used electronic shutter which gives worse results. Although someone said Canon had 2445 score for Low-Light and it is not that here, but 3248, so something might have changed in between. Any comments about it?)

Screen Shot 07-10-20 at 11.27 AM Canon Sony Nikon.PNG
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
 
Last edited:

stratokaster

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
1,620
Location
Dublin, IE
Real Name
Pavel
Check how effortlessly it appears to track focus as the guy moves in and out of the frame - with eye detection too!


I wish Panasonic would abandon their DFD in favour of proper phase detection AF.
 

RS86

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
588
Location
Finland
I wish Panasonic would abandon their DFD in favour of proper phase detection AF.
They must be thinking about it hard or even designing it already for GH6 for example. Or could they combine both somehow? Otherwise they will likely be left behind in the video department. Could result in some delays.
 

John King

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
807
Location
Beaumaris, Melbourne, Australia
Check how effortlessly it appears to track focus as the guy moves in and out of the frame - with eye detection too!


I wish Panasonic would abandon their DFD in favour of proper phase detection AF.
I tend to place more credence in the opinions of 'reviewers' and 'influencers' and 'ambassadors' AFTER people who I know and trust have shown evidence of what is potentially achievable, all the rest is advertising ...

After all, an iPhone will take photos that can be made into fine art prints that are billboard size, right?
 

stratokaster

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
1,620
Location
Dublin, IE
Real Name
Pavel
I tend to place more credence in the opinions of 'reviewers' and 'influencers' and 'ambassadors' AFTER people who I know and trust have shown evidence of what is potentially achievable, all the rest is advertising ...
Err, what? Just look at the screen. The tracking seems to be very good, and with no hunting. Perhaps even a touch better than the current crop of Sony bodies, perhaps not, but definitely in the same ballpark.

After all, an iPhone will take photos that can be made into fine art prints that are billboard size, right?
In fact, in many situations, especially in difficult lighting, an iPhone will automatically produce very good results. With a camera, you will have to do at least some post processing to achieve the same. This is precisely why the whole camera market is going down the drain.
 

John King

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
807
Location
Beaumaris, Melbourne, Australia
yes, however we'd have to see on the final pictures if the pictures are sharp on the right spot.
What!

You don't actually expect any kind of tangible proof from most of these liars, err, sorry 'reviewers', do you? :rofl: :rolleyes:

As I said before, I only believe them AFTER I have seen results and opinions from individuals I have got to know and trust.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2019
Messages
1,023
Location
Spitfire Bluff, Velen
After today's bombshell, Canon has intrigued me. It now ranks higher than Nikon and Sony in my mind. RF system confused me earlier, cheaper and underwhelming bodies and fantastic, expensive, overwhelming lenses. Now it is nicely balanced, offering choices for every budget. We just need Sigma and Tamron to get onto RF bandwagon. I am pretty sure it has disturbed the Sony hardliners while Nikon loyalists are pretty much just looking at it in awe. The continuous shooting on R5 is almost blackout-less like the A9/A9 II - that alone is enough to send some uncomfortable vibes down Sony camp considering Canon is doing it 45MP.
 

pake

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Messages
2,245
Location
Finland
Real Name
Teemu
After today's bombshell, Canon has intrigued me. It now ranks higher than Nikon and Sony in my mind. RF system confused me earlier, cheaper and underwhelming bodies and fantastic, expensive, overwhelming lenses. Now it is nicely balanced, offering choices for every budget. We just need Sigma and Tamron to get onto RF bandwagon. I am pretty sure it has disturbed the Sony hardliners while Nikon loyalists are pretty much just looking at it in awe. The continuous shooting on R5 is almost blackout-less like the A9/A9 II - that alone is enough to send some uncomfortable vibes down Sony camp considering Canon is doing it 45MP.
Too bad the Canon lenses are still huge, heavy and expensive. And the R5 & R6 are huge too. Zero interest.
 

stratokaster

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
1,620
Location
Dublin, IE
Real Name
Pavel
After today's bombshell, Canon has intrigued me. It now ranks higher than Nikon and Sony in my mind. RF system confused me earlier, cheaper and underwhelming bodies and fantastic, expensive, overwhelming lenses. Now it is nicely balanced, offering choices for every budget. We just need Sigma and Tamron to get onto RF bandwagon. I am pretty sure it has disturbed the Sony hardliners while Nikon loyalists are pretty much just looking at it in awe. The continuous shooting on R5 is almost blackout-less like the A9/A9 II - that alone is enough to send some uncomfortable vibes down Sony camp considering Canon is doing it 45MP.
Yes, the first gen RF bodies were clearly just placeholders.

I'm not surprised Canon is doing it right — after all, they were the only company who handled the AF transition properly back in the 80s. The EF mount is so well designed that you can use even the earliest EF lenses on modern RF bodies with full functionality which is pretty impressive for a system that debuted in 1987.

If the rumours are correct and their next lens is a relatively affordable 18-45mm, I might jump ship early.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
1,697
Location
France
You don't actually expect any kind of tangible proof from most of these liars, err, sorry 'reviewers', do you? :rofl: :rolleyes:
I'm not saying they are lyers :)
Just that there's a difference between a "green" spot in the viewfinder and a really perfectly focused picture.
But that won't be visible on a youtube review anyway.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2019
Messages
1,023
Location
Spitfire Bluff, Velen
Too bad the Canon lenses are still huge, heavy and expensive. And the R5 & R6 are huge too. Zero interest.
Fast lenses, yes. Slow? Not. Humongous, expensive lenses were a problem early on but I think they recovered nicely. In any case, if at all, personally I will buy this gear used and only after they have down considerably. But since OP was about starting from nothing, Canon has suddenly become quite compelling.
Also the R5 is squarely the same size as G9, which IMO is too big for m43 but for FF body I think its pretty good:
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

canon-r5-vs-panasonic-g9-rear-a.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

canon-r5-vs-panasonic-g9-top-a.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
 
Last edited:

BDR-529

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
163
Fast lenses, yes. Slow? Not. Also the R5 is squarely the same size as G9, which IMO is too big for m43 but for FF body I think its pretty good:
The "right" size for a camera body depends on average size of human hands assuming that everything necessary can be squeezed inside. Smaller is also not automatically better.

I don't think that G9 is too big just because it could be made smaller. It's almost perfect just as it is because you must be able handle if confortably. Oly EM1.3 might be even slightly better as far as ergonomics go if you have smaller hands.

If you need more compact body, go for GX9 for example but it's actually very hard to get a good hold of that without also pressing/covering half a dozen buttons and levers and being unable to use another without changing your grip.

Size and weigh including the lens is another thing altogether and even at best mirrorless FF can achieve tolarable results with anything even up to 100mm range.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2019
Messages
1,023
Location
Spitfire Bluff, Velen
I don't think that G9 is too big just because it could be made smaller. It's almost perfect just as it is because you must be able handle if confortably. Oly EM1.3 might be even slightly better as far as ergonomics go if you have smaller hands.

If you need more compact body, go for GX9 for example but it's actually very hard to get a good hold on that without also pressing/covering half a dozen buttons and levers and being unable to use another without changing your grip.
Yes, I have EM1.2 and I consider it perfect (for me) in a lot of ways: ergonomics, weight, size. Everything just falls right into the place where I expect them. I came from EM5.2 and never going back to rangefinder/grip-less style body as my main again. In fact now that I think about it, if I am to rank: EM1.2 > Z6/D500 > D810 > D7200 > A7 III/ R III > A7R II > EM5.2 > GM1.
I just prefer chunky body like EM1.2/3.
 
Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Mu-43 is a fan site and not associated with Olympus, Panasonic, or other manufacturers mentioned on this site.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Copyright © 2009-2019 Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom