I hate people wearing masks

Status
Not open for further replies.

John King

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
2,659
Location
Beaumaris, Melbourne, Australia
Real Name
John ...
@jhawk1000 Exactly, Mel.

This could only be a issue in the USA or some European countries where burning places to the ground is considered a normal form of protest (read: protest = riot, to most of us).

Australians are among the most non-conformist people on the planet. Yet, when we see the sense of something, we comply (mostly ... ).
 

RichardC

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,386
Location
The Royal Town of Sutton Coldfield, UK.
Real Name
Richard
Furthermore......there are masks, and then there are masks. For them to be effective against aerosols (sort of thing you get flying around an ICU cubicle), you need a proper fit tested mask.

Bog standard surgical masks only protect you from the big lumps, however, that's all community nurses and ward nurses get issued with.

Edit....almost forgot, don't rub your eyes unless you wash your hands first.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
484
Real Name
Dave Cherry
@moonhawk That author ignores completely the point I made earlier in this thread, that mask wearing is a non-zero sum situation.

Well, he wrote the article before you made the comment. And i was replying to someone else.

Everything he says is predicated on a single individual wearing a mask, not all encounters involving both parties wearing masks, one wearing but not the other, etc.

I suppose if both parties wore masks, the numbers would be even lower for infections I don't know if it would be possible to design a scientific survey IN THE REAL WORLD where you can test every variant of mask non mask.

I would call that unscientific, to say the least.

See comment above. Like I said, if you're that vulnerable, stay home, stay safe. Although one study has suggested--in contrast to this one--that many infections occur in the home, even during severe lockdowns.

Again in my opinion, expecting that someone else wearing a mask to keep you safe is akin to asking them to jog for you so you can lose weight. It just isn't realistic.

He is also relying on secondary sources.
 

John King

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
2,659
Location
Beaumaris, Melbourne, Australia
Real Name
John ...
@moonhawk Sorry, Dave, but you do not seem to understand the concepts of non-zero / zero sum games, the scientific method or statistics.

No shame in that.

One of the most senior cardiologists in Australia listened attentively to my explanation of risk factors in Warfarin treatment, after he had started to explain it incorrectly to me. That was about 15 years ago. He had done little in the way of statistics in either his undergraduate medical degree or his postgraduate studies in cardiology. OTOH, I've studied statistics pretty thoroughly in both psychology and economics.

Mask wearing is a non-zero sum situation, as is much infection control.

The fact that neither he nor you understand that does not negate that.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
484
Real Name
Dave Cherry
@moonhawk Sorry, Dave, but you do not seem to understand the concepts of non-zero / zero sum games, the scientific method or statistics.

No shame in that.

One of the most senior cardiologists in Australia listened attentively to my explanation of risk factors in Warfarin treatment, after he had started to explain it incorrectly to me. That was about 15 years ago. He had done little in the way of statistics in either his undergraduate medical degree or his postgraduate studies in cardiology. OTOH, I've studied statistics pretty thoroughly in both psychology and economics.

Mask wearing is a non-zero sum situation, as is much infection control.

The fact that neither he nor you understand that does not negate that.

Whatever. Maybe you can help the people who did the study do it again to your satisfaction. Not me, not the author of the article I linked. Can you tell me in layman's terms how exactly it is you would design such a study?
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
484
Real Name
Dave Cherry
@moonhawk Sorry, Dave, but you do not seem to understand the concepts of non-zero / zero sum games, the scientific method or statistics.

No shame in that.

One of the most senior cardiologists in Australia listened attentively to my explanation of risk factors in Warfarin treatment, after he had started to explain it incorrectly to me. That was about 15 years ago. He had done little in the way of statistics in either his undergraduate medical degree or his postgraduate studies in cardiology. OTOH, I've studied statistics pretty thoroughly in both psychology and economics.

Mask wearing is a non-zero sum situation, as is much infection control.

The fact that neither he nor you understand that does not negate that.

ze·ro-sum
/ˈˌzirōˈsəm/
adjective
relating to or denoting a situation in which whatever is gained by one side is lost by the other.
"altruism is not a zero-sum game"

How does this apply if, as you say, infectious disease is a non- zero sum game? If someone doesn't get covid, someone else does? Please explain. The study--which, again, was not conducted by the author who you say does not "get it," simply shows that wearing a mask vs not wearing one is statistically insignificant.
Again, I would be interested in hearing how a better study could be done. Because every time a study is mentioned anywhere, the defenders of the party line clamor to the heavens that it's not scientific. Don't get me started on all the other issues related to covid.

Please stay safe, and remember that I fully agree that people in your situation should take every precaution.
 

John King

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
2,659
Location
Beaumaris, Melbourne, Australia
Real Name
John ...
Whatever. Maybe you can help the people who did the study do it again to your satisfaction. Not me, not the author of the article I linked. Can you tell me in layman's terms how exactly it is you would design such a study?
Dave, it's not my job to correct every error published on the internet.

I also cannot inform you in simple terms about a subject I studied for four years ...

However, one has to formulate a null hypothesis in detail. One then formulates an alternative hypothesis. One gathers evidence and analyses that data. This allows one to either reject the null hypothesis (accept the alternate hypothesis) or to fail to reject the null hypothesis. For arcane and complex reasons, one cannot accept the null hypothesis.
 

John King

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
2,659
Location
Beaumaris, Melbourne, Australia
Real Name
John ...
ze·ro-sum
/ˈˌzirōˈsəm/
adjective
relating to or denoting a situation in which whatever is gained by one side is lost by the other.
"altruism is not a zero-sum game"

How does this apply if, as you say, infectious disease is a non- zero sum game? If someone doesn't get covid, someone else does? Please explain. The study--which, again, was not conducted by the author who you say does not "get it," simply shows that wearing a mask vs not wearing one is statistically insignificant.
Again, I would be interested in hearing how a better study could be done. Because every time a study is mentioned anywhere, the defenders of the party line clamor to the heavens that it's not scientific. Don't get me started on all the other issues related to covid.

Please stay safe, and remember that I fully agree that people in your situation should take every precaution.
I'm not "defending a party line".
Politics has no place in science or medical science.

You do not appear to understand the ramifications of basic game theory.

A non-zero sum game is where either both win, or alternately, both lose (e.g. a nuclear war).

A zero sum game is where there must be a winner and a loser (e.g. a football game).

And thank you for your kind thoughts. I talk to my doctor this afternoon about the risks vs benefits of Prolia injections vs osteoporosis of my hips and osteopaenia of the lumbar spine. This is potentially a zero sum game, assuming that I do not have an anaphylactic reaction to the Prolia injection. I cannot take any alternative because I am taking Warfarin, and will be for the rest of my life.
 

John King

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
2,659
Location
Beaumaris, Melbourne, Australia
Real Name
John ...
@moonhawk Dave, I read an article published yesterday that showed that 17% of front line medical staff wearing full PPE (not an isolation suit, obviously) caught Covid-10, but almost no one who constantly wears eyeglasses caught it.

This study supports the move some months ago to providing all these staff with full face masks, as well as normal masks.

Apparently, the study found that the virus attaches to the eyeball coating, from whence it migrates via the lachrymal ducts to the upper respiratory tract.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
484
Real Name
Dave Cherry
@moonhawk Dave, I read an article published yesterday that showed that 17% of front line medical staff wearing full PPE (not an isolation suit, obviously) caught Covid-10, but almost no one who constantly wears eyeglasses caught it.

This study supports the move some months ago to providing all these staff with full face masks, as well as normal masks.

Apparently, the study found that the virus attaches to the eyeball coating, from whence it migrates via the lachrymal ducts to the upper respiratory tract.

I saw that story too.
 

demiro

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
3,236
Location
northeast US
@moonhawk the info you linked is interesting, but I question the validity and ethics of something like that being done during a pandemic. That doctor seems to be in full-on self-promotion mode. That doesn't create a lot of trust for me.

Here is a link to another study, by the National Academy of Science, that clearly concludes that masks make a difference. 15 doctors signed on to those results.

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Lots more data/studies and published opinions of scientists and doctors are out there that say more or less the same thing. I think we can agree that there is no "smoking gun" evidence that masks don't work. But for the sake of the discussion I'll agree that we're not sure masks really do work. Given that, doesn't it make sense to wear a damn mask anyway, as they might work, and to not go around promoting the opposite behavior? The risk/reward here doesn't make any sense to me. It's really stupifying. How can so many people refuse to make a tiny, tiny sacrifice for the good of the whole?
 

agentlossing

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
4,845
Location
Oregon USA
Real Name
Andrew Lossing
@moonhawk Dave, I read an article published yesterday that showed that 17% of front line medical staff wearing full PPE (not an isolation suit, obviously) caught Covid-10, but almost no one who constantly wears eyeglasses caught it.

This study supports the move some months ago to providing all these staff with full face masks, as well as normal masks.

Apparently, the study found that the virus attaches to the eyeball coating, from whence it migrates via the lachrymal ducts to the upper respiratory tract.
Interesting! There is a lot we still don't know, obviously.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
484
Real Name
Dave Cherry
@moonhawk the info you linked is interesting, but I question the validity and ethics of something like that being done during a pandemic. That doctor seems to be in full-on self-promotion mode. That doesn't create a lot of trust for me.

Here is a link to another study, by the National Academy of Science, that clearly concludes that masks make a difference. 15 doctors signed on to those results.

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Lots more data/studies and published opinions of scientists and doctors are out there that say more or less the same thing. I think we can agree that there is no "smoking gun" evidence that masks don't work. But for the sake of the discussion I'll agree that we're not sure masks really do work. Given that, doesn't it make sense to wear a damn mask anyway, as they might work, and to not go around promoting the opposite behavior? The risk/reward here doesn't make any sense to me. It's really stupifying. How can so many people refuse to make a tiny, tiny sacrifice for the good of the whole?

If you want to call it a tiny, tiny sacrifice, fine. Free country, allegedly. But it's not just the masks, it's the whole damn thing. The cure is far, far worse than the disease. Millions out of work, thousands of businesses closed, schools shut down, depression, drug use, suicide all up. And the results of the most restrictive states no better than the most open ones.

Especially galling is the notion that there is a small percentage of the population that is very vulnerable. John King seems to be one of those. We know who they are. We can protect them without destroying the economy and shutting down a whole country. Or planet.

A majority of the co-morbidities are self induced, too, (obviously not all, like John) like obesity, Type two diabetes, smoking and alcohol related disease. And age, which of course is not self-induced.

The average age of death from covid is well above 75--I couldn't immediately google the exact number, but the vast majority of deaths are in the 75 to over 85 age group, with the over 85 group being a lot higher than the 75-85 group. The average life expectancy in the US is 78.54 years.

None of which is to demean the value of seniors--I'm 72 and not without my own issues- but to [point out the ease with which we could identify and protect the most vulnerable without massively disrupting all of society. And (Gasp) if that means we can return to business as usual as long as we wear masks, I'm OK with that, for now.

For the majority of the population, the risk of serious disease is tiny. Just my opinion, but these draconian measures seem ludicrous. Among a great many other things I could mention.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
484
Real Name
Dave Cherry
Interesting! There is a lot we still don't know, obviously.

Well, I don't find ot surprising. I was an EMT with our local volunteer fire deoartment. All first responders are under the super ision of an emergency MD. He told us a long time before covid that touching your eyes was a very effective method of transmitting viruses.

Wearing glasses would seem to naturally reduce the tendency to do that. The good news for me is that i wear glasses. The bad news is that that's because i have macular degeneration. Which makes intensive reading, writing, and proofreading exceedingly difficult, so I am going to sign off.
 

demiro

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
3,236
Location
northeast US
If you want to call it a tiny, tiny sacrifice, fine. Free country, allegedly. But it's not just the masks, it's the whole damn thing. The cure is far, far worse than the disease. Millions out of work, thousands of businesses closed, schools shut down, depression, drug use, suicide all up. And the results of the most restrictive states no better than the most open ones.

Especially galling is the notion that there is a small percentage of the population that is very vulnerable. John King seems to be one of those. We know who they are. We can protect them without destroying the economy and shutting down a whole country. Or planet.

A majority of the co-morbidities are self induced, too, (obviously not all, like John) like obesity, Type two diabetes, smoking and alcohol related disease. And age, which of course is not self-induced.

The average age of death from covid is well above 75--I couldn't immediately google the exact number, but the vast majority of deaths are in the 75 to over 85 age group, with the over 85 group being a lot higher than the 75-85 group. The average life expectancy in the US is 78.54 years.

None of which is to demean the value of seniors--I'm 72 and not without my own issues- but to [point out the ease with which we could identify and protect the most vulnerable without massively disrupting all of society. And (Gasp) if that means we can return to business as usual as long as we wear masks, I'm OK with that, for now.

For the majority of the population, the risk of serious disease is tiny. Just my opinion, but these draconian measures seem ludicrous. Among a great many other things I could mention.

@moonhawk It's funny - we agree on some stuff here.

Self-induced co-morbidities. This should be screamed from the TV and social media platforms every day, but we barely get a whisper. I'm not suggesting we should care less for people whose personal choices have put them more at risk, but clearly calling out what a healthy lifestyle and diet look like it, and maybe even incentivizing good choices in some way [gasp; gov't over reach], would be a good idea. This goes way beyond Covid, obviously. Biggest health issue we have in the US.

Economic impact. I think I read $17 trillion in US, and that's far from the end-state. Enough said, I think.

Depression/societal impact. While this does get publicity, I really think it's way understated. Kids being in school is the biggest issue to me, and we have failed to address that for a year now.

But all this just adds to the frustration I have about masks. Wearing one is a tiny, tiny sacrifice. The rest of that is not. Not to rehash the science debate, but if we strictly followed masking protocols I think a lot of the other issues would be mitigated to some degree. And again, if I'm wrong about that, I think the potential to limit socio-economic impact would be well worth the inconvenience because I may be right.

I'm sorry to go at you on this Dave, but you are the kind of person that concerns me. You're clearly intelligent. You've studied the issue. You have anecdotal knowledge as well. All that makes you very credible, and makes it likely that you can and do influence people who don't check off all or any of those boxes.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
484
Real Name
Dave Cherry
I don't think that 500,000+ dead USA citizens as a result of an unbelievably ramshackle approach to a serious pandemic can be minimized or ignored or explained away in the cavalier way you appear to think it can.

"Ramshackle" approach may be the result of having a federalist system of Govt. Fifty independent States each approaching the issue in their own way, hopefully for the right reasons. The advantage is that we can compare notes, and see for ourselves what works and what doesn't , Our system has been described as fifty independent laboratories of democracy. Although I detest that word Democracy. It amounts to mob rule. That is why Benjamin Franklin told a questioner outside of Independence Hall that we would have a "Republic, if we can keep it." that looks to be in serious doubt these days.

As far as "Cavalier", I don't think you have been reading what I've daid very carefully.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Mu-43 is a fan site and not associated with Olympus, Panasonic, or other manufacturers mentioned on this site.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Forum GIFs powered by GIPHY: https://giphy.com/
Copyright © Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom