I hate people wearing masks

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WaltP

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In "the good old days" we had some common basis for judging a reliable source. As I understand it now, we are much better off just having arguable opinions, rather than accountability for "truth, justice, and the American Way". And it appears the farther we drive down this road, the harder it is to agree to turn around and find unity of purpose and the common well-being. The west was not won by rugged individuals - they died without their neighbors.
 

John King

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@Brownie Tim, we got the same story here in the beginning. Our first standard grade medical masks were made in Tunisia, or some such! Australia is now making its own masks. Good thing, too.

My P2/N95 masks are 3M, and made in the USA. Very early on, my chemist (pharmacist, in USA English) produced a couple from under the counter for me, understanding my pretty high risk situation.

See my post upthread about mask wearing being a non-zero sum situation. I have been saying this to anyone who will listen since February 2020 ...
 

WaltP

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Dr. Fauci:

"Masks don't work, don't buy them."
(we now know this was a lie in an attempt to save masks for healthcare workers)
"Masks protect others."
"Masks don't do much at all, but it helps us all feel like we're in this together."
"Masks protect you from others."
"Wear two masks."

Is that an evolution of the science? If masks work so well, why is it during normal times every doctor, nurse, assistant, and clerical worker in every Drs. office in the world don't wear them every day, and yet don't fall ill with every malaise that walks through their door?
Yes, as a matter of fact, that IS how science works. Constant correction, building on knowledge, never finished, ever.
In Europe, they used to kill scientists. In some ways, we are still stuck in that mode. But we will break free someday.

Reminds me of the old axiom "if today's answer still fits tomorrow, you are stuck."
 

Brownie

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@Brownie Tim, we got the same story here in the beginning. Our first standard grade medical masks were made in Tunisia, or some such! Australia is now making its own masks. Good thing, too.

My P2/N95 masks are 3M, and made in the USA. Very early on, my chemist (pharmacist, in USA English) produced a couple from under the counter for me, understanding my pretty high risk situation.

See my post upthread about mask wearing being a non-zero sum situation. I have been saying this to anyone who will listen since February 2020 ...
@John King just ask yourself the simple question I asked in my post.

If they work so well, why don't all healthcare workers wear them all of the time?

If they worked then the insurance companies would demand it of all healthcare workers to reduce their liability. By the same token, anyone entering a healthcare office or hospital would be required to wear a mask. Yet in the world of healthcare masks are primarily worn only during surgical procedures.

It strikes me as simple logic. The argument doesn't hold up when considering how masks are employed. Does that mean I don't think you should wear one? No. I think everyone should do what they need to keep themselves healthy.

Conversely, I am a firm believer in vaccinations and will gladly accept mine as soon as I see other aren't growing a third arm... :hiding:
 
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Sorry, but this is not true, Dave.

As long as any mask is "sterilized" by being over 40°C for a short period this will kill the COVID-19 virus. This can be achieved by e.g. leaving the mask in a car parked in the sun in Australia.

Even a relatively dirty mask largely prevents transmission from an infected person by limiting or preventing droplet and aerosols on exhalation or coughing.

And I do wear medical grade masks (P2/N95), due to being particularly at risk due to age and multiple medical problems (chronic asthma, multiple heart problems). It is possible that I will not be able to be vaccinated at all, due to a history of atypical and bad reactions to vaccines. I will be advised by my specialists on this. I already know that my GP will not vaccinate me.

There is plenty of misinformation out there about COVID-19. Please do not add to it.

I certainly understand your position given your circumstances. And I do wear a mask where required by law. And I don't disagree that sunlight/heat will sterilize a mask. As it will germs if you're outdoors in the sunlight and fresh air, where I see people all the time, at great distances from anyone, dutifully wearing their masks.

The other day I saw a couple wearing masks riding their motorcycle on a bright, sunny day. No helmets. What a perfect illustration of our times.

thanks you for being civil in your reply. I will not waste time on the snarks, and will not bother this forum with all the scientific evidence against wearing masks, of which there is a great deal. I wish you well, and hope you stay safe.
 

Brownie

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Yes, as a matter of fact, that IS how science works. Constant correction, building on knowledge, never finished, ever.
In Europe, they used to kill scientists. In some ways, we are still stuck in that mode. But we will break free someday.

Reminds me of the old axiom "if today's answer still fits tomorrow, you are stuck."
So then, you are suggesting the science behind masks has just developed over the past year? Nonsense. Be cautious with your assertion here, remember we're talking about the use of masks, not the evolution of the virus. They know (and have known) exactly how masks work, be it Tuberculosis, the flu, or COVID.
 

PakkyT

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Dang it, I knew I shouldn't have looked in this thread again. I peaked at it when it was first posted and had only a few posts and got a chuckle. Then I kept seeing i in the "new messages" list every day with more than one page of replies and thought Uh-oh, I bet this has degraded. I held firm for many days but damn it, I had to peak and yep, just as I thought. :(
 

John King

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@moonhawk Dave, I was actually slightly inaccurate in my reply. Viruses cannot be 'killed', as they are not alive to begin with. They can be 'attenuated' by breaking them up into pieces, such as is done with Fluvax. I get full blown flu when vaccinated with Fluvax - 3 years in a row (late 1990s)! My specialist doesn't do this now, and my GP will not even vaccinate me for mumps or shingles.I may be able to tolerate the mRNA vaccines, but the doctor will have an Anaphylaxis kit handy when I'm vaccinated ...

Both bicycle and motorcycle helmets have been compulsory here for over 20 years. I've spent time in an acquired brain injury ward as a psychology student many decades ago, so I fully agree with all secondary safety items in vehicles. Also even better if the particular vehicle has excellent primary safety features (brakes, steering, suspension design and handling characteristics) designed in.
 

WaltP

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So then, you are suggesting the science behind masks has just developed over the past year? Nonsense. Be cautious with your assertion here, remember we're talking about the use of masks, not the evolution of the virus. They know (and have known) exactly how masks work, be it Tuberculosis, the flu, or COVID.
No, YOU are making that suggestion. You rightly state that we have known how masks work for many years. The knowledge of how they might or might not help with the Covid virus is where I disagree with your assertion. You appear to know about masks and find them useless against viruses, or at least Covid. I think that is old knowledge that has been supplanted by continued study.
I was raised to cover a cough or sneeze. Many things we encounter are not as deadly as Covid, so we do not all climb into bubbles, but go on with our lives. But if you go to a TB ward, I think you'll notice greatly increased mask usage. Not so much with the annual flu as we have come to rely on the vaccines each year and some herd immunity
But each disease is different. Masks do their part, how that works in the whole spectrum of transmission is an ever-changing research quest. But they are NOT useless
 

WaltP

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I think a better way to say this is that I disagree with the emphasis being put on the mask, and think the emphasis should be broadened to the mask's (or any other treatment. See below) effectiveness against Coronavirus. We know what masks do, I think we are learning (in a very new information environment) how they might be used in the fight against Covid.

The science in MY head tells me that not a single documented and verified person has died of Covid while drinking a Corona beer. I just don't understand how "you people" can't see the obvious here!! .... :drinks: :th_salute::th_salute:
 

Keeth101

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The science in MY head tells me that not a single documented and verified person has died of Covid while drinking a Corona beer. I just don't understand how "you people" can't see the obvious here!! .... :drinks: :th_salute::th_salute:

It is absolutely clear to me ....

Alcohol kills germs - proven fact - so -
Drink alcohol and stay germ free. (That's my excuse anyway :drinks::drinks::biggrin: )
 

agbfoto

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I love people who wear a mask :yahoo:

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demiro

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@Brownie man, I know you are way smarter than your posts in this thread would indicate. You can't really believe the arguments you're spouting, can you? "Healthcare workers don't always wear masks therefore masks don't work". Is that really what you're saying?

@moonhawk Please sir, provide a link to scientific evidence against wearing masks to help protect against Covid. I am honestly curious to see that. I'll Google it myself, but it sounds like you already know where to look, so again, please share. Thank you.
 
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@moonhawk Dave, I was actually slightly inaccurate in my reply. Viruses cannot be 'killed', as they are not alive to begin with. They can be 'attenuated' by breaking them up into pieces, such as is done with Fluvax. I get full blown flu when vaccinated with Fluvax - 3 years in a row (late 1990s)! My specialist doesn't do this now, and my GP will not even vaccinate me for mumps or shingles.I may be able to tolerate the mRNA vaccines, but the doctor will have an Anaphylaxis kit handy when I'm vaccinated ...

Both bicycle and motorcycle helmets have been compulsory here for over 20 years. I've spent time in an acquired brain injury ward as a psychology student many decades ago, so I fully agree with all secondary safety items in vehicles. Also even better if the particular vehicle has excellent primary safety features (brakes, steering, suspension design and handling characteristics) designed in.
[/QUOTE]

John, I was just pointing out the irony of wearing a mask and no helmet. I believe in safety devices, to a degree. I've had a seatbelt save me from serious injury once, and a few years back, had a total blackout incident while driving. The auto=stop feature kept me from going off the road.

No alcohol involved, and it wasn't falling asleep. Multiple tests were unable to detect any cause. But I'm definitely leaving that feature on.

Maybe someone can point out to me the point of wearing a mask out alone in the great outdoors, or while driving a vehicle with no one else in it, however. But I don't want to drag this forum into great raging debates. I love it because it manages to avoid those, and stays on topic.
 

demiro

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Maybe someone can point out to me the point of wearing a mask out alone in the great outdoors, or while driving a vehicle with no one else in it, however. But I don't want to drag this forum into great raging debates. I love it because it manages to avoid those, and stays on topic.

Great straw man, as I don't recall seeing anyone here making those points. Nor do I recall seeing you share any links to scientific studies that support your position. But I did Google it. Got an immediate hit that laid out a well-researched anti-mask case, with links to credible studies seeming to support that position. My first thought was "holy crap - do I have this all wrong?". But then I Googled a bit more, and found a full refutation of the author of that piece, which laid out how he cherry-picked parts of studies that supported the anti-mask rhetoric and really presented the "data" in a disingenuous way. I stopped at that point. So again, if you have something please share it. Making controversial comments then not backing them up is hardly avoiding dragging the forum into raging debates.
 
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Great straw man, as I don't recall seeing anyone here making those points. Nor do I recall seeing you share any links to scientific studies that support your position. But I did Google it. Got an immediate hit that laid out a well-researched anti-mask case, with links to credible studies seeming to support that position. My first thought was "holy crap - do I have this all wrong?". But then I Googled a bit more, and found a full refutation of the author of that piece, which laid out how he cherry-picked parts of studies that supported the anti-mask rhetoric and really presented the "data" in a disingenuous way. I stopped at that point. So again, if you have something please share it. Making controversial comments then not backing them up is hardly avoiding dragging the forum into raging debates.

Here is an article from a Doctor whose news letter i get. He describes a study in Denmark. Over 5000 participants, proper masks, used properly, changed frequently. A link to the actual study is included in his overview.


https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/11/19/covid-19-new-evidence-on-face-masks/


This guy has a lot of other interesting stuff about Covid and other medical issues. You may find it interesting.

Searching with Google can be frustrating, as I have often looked for information I had seen a while back and been unable to find it. Articles I knew were there had been scrubbed. I do not approve of high tech companies making decisions for me on what medical viewpoints are or aren't valid.

Science is an ongoing exploration of available evidence. And then there's the famous quote: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." So we should take everything with a grain of salt.

My personal opinion is, if you're in a high risk category, you know who you are. Stay home, stay safe. I wear a mask when required to by law, of if in the presence of someone who feels or is vulnerable. I respect their wishes.

Maybe someone can now post a link to the study that shows the link between people who don't wear masks and those who don't wash their hands after a number two.
 

John King

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@moonhawk That author ignores completely the point I made earlier in this thread, that mask wearing is a non-zero sum situation.

Everything he says is predicated on a single individual wearing a mask, not all encounters involving both parties wearing masks, one wearing but not the other, etc.

I would call that unscientific, to say the least.

He is also relying on secondary sources.
 
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