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High Res mode alternative to in-camera option

Discussion in 'Image Processing' started by Ranger Rick, Jun 10, 2018.

  1. Ranger Rick

    Ranger Rick Mu-43 Veteran

    314
    Apr 11, 2009
    Tempe, AZ
    Rick
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  2. Is this new mode some kind of computational imaging algorithm I wonder?
     
  3. Toddster

    Toddster Mu-43 Veteran

    257
    Aug 7, 2013
    Florida
    Todd Cleaver
    Very interesting. I don't use Photoshop CC but I am certainly interested in hearing the results from some of our members that do.
     
  4. ArizonaMike

    ArizonaMike Mu-43 Veteran

    469
    Jan 19, 2018
    Arizona, USA
    Interesting article. Thank you for posting it.

    I stopped using Photoshop when they went to the subscription service, and I have to admit that this kind of functionality makes me want to rethink my decision. However I do wonder what the upper limit on effective re-sizing is. If you can quadruple the effective MP of an image from 20MP to 80MP, what is stopping you from going from 80MP to 320MP?

    Of course there is an effective upper limit, but I wonder what that would be as not even PS can create new image information continuously. And I also wonder when there will be other apps that can do the same thing. There are plenty of up-scaling apps available now, but none that I think do a really good job. Perhaps I will download and trial PS again.
     
  5. Hmm I doubt that it would work better than a properly executed high res shot with a good lens and sharpened properly - the native high res RAWs need a lot of sharpening during conversion. Besides, the other benefit to the half-pixel shift is to compensate for Bayer filtering, so as to improve colour accuracy, not just resolution.
     
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  6. gryphon1911

    gryphon1911 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 13, 2014
    Central Ohio, USA
    Andrew
    My thought on this is that Adobe has additions an old trick that i still use from years ago.
    In Photoshop if you do a resize by 10% using bicubic smooth, and keep repeating that process, the was very little to no adverse IQ hit on the resize.

    I was able to take 6mp file and how then up to 20x30 and look fantastic. Still have one of those on my wall (shot on an old Nikon D50).

    In theory, there was no limit to the size you could go, but as ArizonaMike stated, there surely must be. I want from 6mp to effectively 24mp, and see no I'll effects.

    I would have thought Adobe would have tried something like this year's ago.
     
  7. ArizonaMike

    ArizonaMike Mu-43 Veteran

    469
    Jan 19, 2018
    Arizona, USA
    I have several photo apps that do a credible job of resizing up to doubling both the horizontal and vertical sizes, and that quadruples my image size. But beyond that all seem to show an increasingly large image degradation and doubling the dimensions seems to be the effective limit for what I have now. I just do not see how it is possible for software to invent new image information when none is available. It seems to me that interpolating between pixels can only give you so much.

    I wonder if the new PS functionality is any better than what I currently have. All of my workflow tools resize (Dxo's PhotoLab, CaptureOne and even AlienSkin) as does my copy of AffinityPhoto, but pixel shifting functionality in the camera does seem like a better way to go. I would use it more if it could be done while hand-holding the camera.
     
  8. MNm43

    MNm43 Mu-43 Veteran

    224
    Mar 19, 2014
    I have, in the past, used On1 to resize and it does a pretty job. I think it is possible to do considerable resizing without artifacts creeping in, but as noted above, you can interpolate between the pixels you, have but you can't create new information through interpolation.
     
  9. archaeopteryx

    archaeopteryx Mu-43 Veteran

    390
    Feb 25, 2017
    It's not. But it can be skillfully faked. One such class of techniques is AI image enhancement, which makes informed guesses about what pixels might be there based on a training set derived from other images. There's a number of AI implementations and content aware fills employ similar techniques. EnhanceNet is one relatively recent example. I'd say it's probably reasonable to classify such approaches as clever maximum likelihood estimators but some may prefer other terminology.

    Adobe is also well aware of what pixel peepers want to see, so another possibility is adaptive interpolation that's tuned to make up and insert information which results in commonly desired appearances. Object inference and EXIF information about lens properties can be used to inform guesses. One can probably test whether Adobe's doing so by stripping EXIF from a range of images and comparing outputs.
    Adobe's had various offerings in this direction for some time. The first version of Preserve Details was in 2013, I think, and there's similar stuff farther back.
     
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  10. ArizonaMike

    ArizonaMike Mu-43 Veteran

    469
    Jan 19, 2018
    Arizona, USA
    I do not have the experience in this area to make any sweeping statements about what is possible and what is not *, but it does seem to me that photo contents vary so much that what works well for one photo may fail miserably in another. For example, it seems to me that an AI process that works well for architectural images would not work at all for birding photos or other relatively complex images.

    I recently ran some tests using some of my re-sizing software and tried to triple the sides of an image (meaning going from 20MP to 180MP). While much of the photo was just fine (or at least reasonably fine) the applications could not do anything with the license plate of a car in the image. I did not care about the license number, but it seemed almost readable in the original and I thought it might show up properly in the resized image. It did not, which seems to indicate that there are some basic hard stops in the ability to resize an image.

    Given this I often get a good laugh at those movies where someone zooms in on a barely visible image and is able to count the hairs on someone's head.

    * In terms of what is not possible, I often try to remember that the highway of history is littered with the remains of people's statements that something could not be done.
     
  11. archaeopteryx

    archaeopteryx Mu-43 Veteran

    390
    Feb 25, 2017
    Yep, high level AIs commonly fail on inputs beyond the training set. The set can be broadened and measures taken to encourage out of set robustness. However, an AI tasked with making up pixels can operate at lower levels and may be more robust. It would not be difficult to guard its output by comparing to bicubic or a similar interpolation method and revert to interpolation if the pixel values seem too different.
     
  12. 50orsohours

    50orsohours Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Oct 13, 2013
    Portland Oregon
    How much do you sharpen your hi res files? I hear this often but no one ever says what that means. Thanks
     
  13. Yeah sorry that's what I've been told by everyone who uses it, not from personal experience. There are plenty on this forum who do that can answer this though, e.g. @ijm5012@ijm5012.
     
  14. whumber

    whumber Mu-43 Regular

    147
    Jun 13, 2017
    You'll probably need something like 50% to 100% more sharpening and radius than you normally apply depending on your normal process. The way Olympus creates the HiRes files effectively acts as an extremely strong AA filter which is why the RAW files tend to look very soft at first.
     
  15. ijm5012

    ijm5012 Mu-43 Legend

    Oct 2, 2013
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ian
    If you're using LR, I'm of no help recommending sharpening settings, since I use DXO PL and leverage their superior (IMO) Lens Sharpness profile for sharpening.
     
  16. D7k1

    D7k1 Mu-43 All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Nov 18, 2013
    Yes this really works. Just did a 100% size increase and on a high res monitor it looks fantastic. Very quick on my i7700 / 4200 oc 4400 and 32 gig's of fast memory and AMD 480 8 gig. I mean really fast a second or 2. More life for my G8!...
     
  17. D7k1

    D7k1 Mu-43 All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Nov 18, 2013
    Just used this on a macro image and going up to 10,000 pixels @ 100% looks just as sharp on a high def. monitor as the original.
     
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  18. ijm5012

    ijm5012 Mu-43 Legend

    Oct 2, 2013
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ian
    Very interesting. A few thoughts on my end:
    • Does this make hi-res mode redundant/unnecessary in the majority of scenarios?
    • Is this reason enough to be sucked in to the CC subscription cycle?
    • How does this compare in terms of up-resing compared to what can be generated in Affintiy Photo?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. whumber

    whumber Mu-43 Regular

    147
    Jun 13, 2017
    After playing with this feature a bit I don't get the same impression as others. It seems like it's very good at adding false detail, but that's about it. Fairly different from HiRes mode which actually captures more detail. Comparison below with HiRes on the left and PreserveDetail2.0 on the right.

    hires_detailpreserve.
     
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  20. ijm5012

    ijm5012 Mu-43 Legend

    Oct 2, 2013
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ian
    There’s no doubting that the text is sharper and noise is lower in the native hi-res shot, but does this new method make hi-res redundant in certain scenarios?

    On the flip-side of that discussion, do you really need every image to be 40, 50 , or eve 80MP? Probably not.

    At the end of the day, I think this method is great for taking normal photos that you’d like to print large, and ensuring there’s enough resolution present to give sufficient detail on your print medium of choice. By hi-red definitely does still provide some advantages.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
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