Has everyone gone mad?

Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
1,255
Location
Rankin Inlet, Nunavut
I would love to see a link to some of the FM threads where "detailing how PS cannot emulate a TS, and how many shots, especially in vaulting interiors, can only be achieved with a TS lens."

I have seen this in my own pictures, but some other opinions would be interesting.
Look up Peter Figen on FM. He's on the below thread. There's usually one per year and a few specialists chime in.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1630100/0

Also, TS is where more megapixels greatly assists. Hence its prevalence in LF.

The faux miniature look that was a "thing" a few years ago is based on perspective control. Used in video, too.
 

Armand Di Meo

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
62
I am not aware that more and more Micro 4/3 shooters have thrown in the towel and conceded the inevitability of Micro 4/3's demise. However, if this appears to be the case, this is because many of us have become weary of the whole subject. In the meantime, we have continued to enjoy shooting with our Micro 4/3 gear and even continued to purchase new equipment. I believe much of the push for full frame is motivated by economics. You correctly noted the lower cost of Micro 4/3 compared to full frame. It is no secret that camera manufacturers have been hurting due to the trend toward smart phones for the mass market. Higher prices for full frame gear mean higher profits. Micro 4/3 is the oldest and best supported mirrorless format out there. Given the enthusiasm of Micro 4/3 shooters for their format, I am confident that we can continue to carve out a niche market within a niche market even if we have not been as vocal in the debate.
 

PakkyT

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
3,719
Location
Massachusetts, USA
I have used shift lenses in the past (film era) but I fail to see a real benefit to have such lens for digital. {snip}
What kind of photography do you have in mind where a shift lens would be useful?
The big advantage of using a shift lens is that you can compose in camera and avoid having to quess how much you will lose by the inevitable cropping from the frame when you straighten in post.

A shift lens is the right tool for architectural photography, doing it in post is a workaround. Shots taken with a shift lens maybe, look more natural too as the correction is done optically.
Ya mainly this. While we now have the in camera keystone correction and while I shoot raw I sometimes turn on the keystone feature when taking photos of building or other architectural things to help me frame up the shot, the one point this really drives is when you get home and see the raw vs. the keystone corrected jpg from your camera you see how much of your image sensor you are essentially throwing away. A nice shift lens would allow you to optically change the scene to take full advantage of my megapickles.

The funny thing is I often do not bother with the keystone and just shoot looking up, distortions and all, but if a sift lens was made for m43 and wasn't too pricey, I might buy one and my shooting of things like building and such might go up considerably. Or put another way, I currently don't shoot tons that need a shift lens but an affordable shift lens might change my mind on that.
 

Santa

Super Moderator
Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
858
Location
Tennessee
Real Name
Tom Staggs
I read this discussion every time it comes up. I’m sticking with my Olympus and Panasonic I do agree that it is an interesting subject and this time it has been very cordial. We appreciate that.
 

NCV

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
426
Location
Italy
Real Name
Nigel
Look up Peter Figen on FM. He's on the below thread. There's usually one per year and a few specialists chime in.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1630100/0

Also, TS is where more megapixels greatly assists. Hence its prevalence in LF.

The faux miniature look that was a "thing" a few years ago is based on perspective control. Used in video, too.
Thanks for pointing me there. He has made some interesting posts.
 

hoggdoc

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2010
Messages
236
Location
Longview, Washington USA
Real Name
Wayne
I think it is all true but you missed something in your chart. Most of us who consider the change , look for different lens types.
A regular zoom , a fast prime and maybe wide and short tele.
em5iii+ 8-18mm +12-40 f2.8+25mm f1.4 = 1361g and 3532usd
Sony a7iii+tamron 17-28 +28-75 f2.8 +Samyang 45mm =1782g and 4180 usd

You can replace one of the zooms with a prime or choose em1ii instead and the results will move to the Sony direction. And dont forget the a7c that cost 200$ less and 200g less.
You can also look at a simple set of one prime \one regular zoom and the results are really close ,also . the Olympus future is unclear ,it feels like selling the Sony gear will be easier 5 years from now.
The strong side of the oly is second hand prices(used em1ii for about 600usd is crazy ).
The problem with you comparison is you have chosen premium lens of the Olympus kits and second or third rate lens for the Sony kit. The cost and possibly weights will change if you use more comparable lens in the Sony kit.
 

D7k1

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Nov 18, 2013
Messages
2,627
I am mad surely, just sold a Gx8 to get a second G9:) and am planing on getting at least a Pan 7-14/8-18 and 35-100 f2.8 next. The benefits of small lenses (I compare my PL100-400 all the time to the Nikkor 200-500 and a 500mm f4) are M43 USP for me.
 
Joined
Jun 23, 2017
Messages
1,353
Adding another voice to the discussion, I've settled pretty happily on this format. Like most of the regulars here, I've tinkered with small sensor superzooms, premium compacts, 1" sensors, Pentax and Fujifilm APSC and pre-digital 35mm film, and m43 is my happy compromise for capably doing most things I want to do.

Affordability and easy-carry options with a reliably good outcome are my priorities. Want to shoot an event with gear that won't beak the back or bank? No problem. Want a camera to pop in your bag for Every Day Carry? Easy!

I love micro four thirds, and hope to keep using the format for many years to come.
 

amit

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
205
The problem with you comparison is you have chosen premium lens of the Olympus kits and second or third rate lens for the Sony kit. The cost and possibly weights will change if you use more comparable lens in the Sony kit.
I think the constant f2.8 tamron zooms can be considered premium.
You can argue about the prime , make it olympus 25 f1.8 , it will still be close.
 
Joined
Nov 30, 2019
Messages
38
Location
Milton Keynes, UK
Real Name
Mike
It may be TL-DR but I made it to the end (as of page 6). It has been an enjoyable thread and started by a wonderful post from @Hypilein. Thanks to all and I'm very busy enjoying my Mu43 kit.

I think I do understand that the folks in the publishing media have to earn a crust but I keep getting the strong impression that they are pushing FF in articles and reviews more than seems reasonable. This is where lots of those dratted numerical comparisons come from along with the setting of often unreasonable expectations and aspirations. Similarly many of these same reviews push the video capabilities without much discussion of the still photos angles.

Perhaps it's about journalists and reviewers being vloggers themselves and about them also being in the pay of their advertisers. Of course the biggest advertising volume will be related to the biggest priced equipment. So the rest of us might need to write more posts more often to more magazines and forums extolling the brilliance and value of our favourite format, Micro Four Thirds.
 

Hypilein

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
1,543
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #111
It's not even necessary for vloggers to be paid by manufacturers (and most of the probably aren't, at least directly). Their content is made up of reviews for new gear. Reviews make no sense, if no one is actually buying the stuff. Mu43 is a complete system. Not much is happening here, not only because Panasonic focuses on FF and Olympus is selling, but also because there is not that much there that really could happen. The list of lenses in this system that is missing is incredibly short and all of those lenses are very much specialty lenses: Long macro, Ultrawide prime, Tilt-shift, Fisheye zoom. All of the new lenses added to the catalogue are not really selling to people who would otherwise just not have bought a lens at all. So mu43 is just not all that attractive to review channels.

Meanwhile Nikon and Canon have to release a full new lens system for their new mount keeping the FF interest high.
 

NCV

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
426
Location
Italy
Real Name
Nigel
It's not even necessary for vloggers to be paid by manufacturers (and most of the probably aren't, at least directly). Their content is made up of reviews for new gear. Reviews make no sense, if no one is actually buying the stuff. Mu43 is a complete system. Not much is happening here, not only because Panasonic focuses on FF and Olympus is selling, but also because there is not that much there that really could happen. The list of lenses in this system that is missing is incredibly short and all of those lenses are very much specialty lenses: Long macro, Ultrawide prime, Tilt-shift, Fisheye zoom. All of the new lenses added to the catalogue are not really selling to people who would otherwise just not have bought a lens at all. So mu43 is just not all that attractive to review channels.

Meanwhile Nikon and Canon have to release a full new lens system for their new mount keeping the FF interest high.
I remember a time around 2013 when a lot of the major Bloggers were pushing M43. TOP, Luminous Landscape, Tom Hogan, and VSL just to mention the more serous sources were all pushing M43.

The key fact was IBIS and the small size compared to the big heavy DSLR's which were popular back then. M43 particularly with the EM5, or the G3 was something new and revolutionary and made good copy. I guess it is more interesting to read about new revolutionary things rather than a little update to a DSLR.

I do not think the lens choice factor came into it. We were seeing the first 2.8 zooms back then for M43.

If you do any specialised sector of photography seriously, it is often the case that you need specialized lenses. My need to use shift lenses is a case in point.

We are hearing a lot about FF because Canon and Nikon have finally got serious about mirrorless and Panasonic seems to be moving the emphasis towards FF. We all like to read about big changes and new lines of gear.

I think M43 is not attractive to the review channels, because they have not really come up with anything revolutionary like the original EM5 of late. To exaggerate, a 60MP sensor in a M43 camera would be news and would create "buzz", even if 20MP is more than fine. The recent news from Olympus and the announcements by Panasonic are not helpful, they give the impression of a format in decline.

What makes life interesting is that the choices people make are not always logical. We have lots of choice in camera gear for that very reason.
 

Hypilein

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
1,543
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #113
You worded that much better than I did. Exactly what I wanted to say.
 

Mike Wingate

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
3,266
Location
Altrincham
Real Name
Mike Wingate
People do not buy a smartphone, they rent them monthly until they get another one. So the outlay is different to ILC’s.
Panasonic Lumix has not only brought out the S5 FF, but also the G100 and BGH 1 video cube. Thinking out of the box there. A bit of variety, moving away from the mainstream models. Hopefully they will return next year with a new G9 and GX9 incorporating the developments they have introduced in other areas. Some have said that the S5 is an S1, moree compact without the top screen. Can this be done with the new G9? Can the updated innards be introduced into a GX8 like body?
 

D7k1

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Nov 18, 2013
Messages
2,627
I think we might see just a Gx9, G9, Gh6 lineup with something like like a 3.5 year release with a significant software update (like the G9) from Panasonic. I don't think the market will support a 18/24 month release now.
 

iPete

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
63
Location
London, United Kingdom
Great thread, perfect summary of how most hobby and enthusiast photographers should approach the full frame argument.

That said, maybe you can update the Fujifilm side with the new XS-10 camera announced today. I'm not considering switching but if I were, that would be the camera to get. Small, light, good grip, IBIS, USB-C charging. PASM dial, twin custom control dials == Olympus layout!
No weather sealing... :doh:

Hands-on with the Fujifilm X-S10: Small camera, great grip: Digital Photography Review (dpreview.com)
This has lured me in. In a few weeks I'll know if I went mad. :laugh:

The first post does alude that the scenario would play out differently with prime lenses. I'd personally like to get more DoF control than my GX80 + 20mm f1.7 while adding a travel zoom. Yes, m43 and f/1.7 is probably good enough but.. 🤷‍♂️

Now, I could try and get this with Pro range lenses but suddenly the m43 system gets big and expensive. X-S10 with..
  • Fuji 23 1.4 is smaller than the GX80 with Oly 17 1.2.
  • Fuji 35 1.4 is much smaller then the GX80 with Oly 25 1.2. The Fuji 2.0 WR has marginaly better DoF control than the Oly 1.2 and is again, much smaller and even less money.
Travel zoom? I've gone with the Fuji 16-80 WR f4. The Pana 12-60 2.8-4 OIS is similar in form and it is lighter. However, the Fuji was the same price new as a second hand Pana (due to the bundle pricing).

I'll probably keep the GX80 + 20mm pancake because it is tiny - though need to fix the rear wheel (seems to be a common issue!).
 

amit

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
205
This has lured me in. In a few weeks I'll know if I went mad. :laugh:

The first post does alude that the scenario would play out differently with prime lenses. I'd personally like to get more DoF control than my GX80 + 20mm f1.7 while adding a travel zoom. Yes, m43 and f/1.7 is probably good enough but.. 🤷‍♂️

Now, I could try and get this with Pro range lenses but suddenly the m43 system gets big and expensive. X-S10 with..
  • Fuji 23 1.4 is smaller than the GX80 with Oly 17 1.2.
  • Fuji 35 1.4 is much smaller then the GX80 with Oly 25 1.2. The Fuji 2.0 WR has marginaly better DoF control than the Oly 1.2 and is again, much smaller and even less money.
Travel zoom? I've gone with the Fuji 16-80 WR f4. The Pana 12-60 2.8-4 OIS is similar in form and it is lighter. However, the Fuji was the same price new as a second hand Pana (due to the bundle pricing).

I'll probably keep the GX80 + 20mm pancake because it is tiny - though need to fix the rear wheel (seems to be a common issue!).
The 25 f1.2 is way sharper , especially wide open .
Same goes for these zooms vs the oly 12-40.
 

iPete

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
63
Location
London, United Kingdom
The 25 f1.2 is way sharper , especially wide open .
Same goes for these zooms vs the oly 12-40.
I suspect they are sharper but I'm sure all lenses mentioned above are better or the same as the usable P20mm pancake. The 12-40 looks nice but isn't enough range for a 1 zoom setup. Size, weight and cost are all important factors for me, more so than outright sharpness (once you hit good enough).
 
Last edited:

Darmok N Jalad

Temba, his aperture wide
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
1,104
Location
Tanagra (not really)
Real Name
Randy
That's ok. I took the photo on the billboard, and of the billboard. Most people think it's funny that you can get a billboard from m4/3. But the resolution needed to make them is ridiculously low. In reality, any camera can make an image suitable for a billboard.
Yeah, it's all about viewing distances. Hard to pixel peep when you're 100+ feet away and looking through a dirty windshield! It's much like HDTVs and 1080p vs 4K--you either need a rather large diagonal screen, or to sit too close to realize the benefits of that 4K screen. It was the HDR they added to the UHD spec that really made it worth the upgrade. Without it, 1080P would be fine for most living rooms.
 

Darmok N Jalad

Temba, his aperture wide
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
1,104
Location
Tanagra (not really)
Real Name
Randy
As for the subject at hand, simply put, I'm not a pro, and I've already wasted a shameful amount of money on this hobby. I do enjoy the recreation of it, and I'm satisfied with the results and get good feedback. Upgrading my kit would just be more money down the drain. I have a hard enough time settling on my preferred lens lineup to change formats. Sometime in the last few years, I went off the rails on gear. Instead, I should be squeezing the most I can out of what I have. I could have bought a new set of golf clubs by now with that money and really been reminded that it's me who sucks and not my equipment! :rofl:
 
Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Mu-43 is a fan site and not associated with Olympus, Panasonic, or other manufacturers mentioned on this site.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Copyright © 2009-2019 Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom