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GX8 Shutter Shock?

Discussion in 'Panasonic Cameras' started by m43man, Sep 23, 2015.

  1. m43man

    m43man Mu-43 Veteran

    359
    Aug 28, 2012
    Vancouver
    After getting the GX8, I was curious about the difference in DR between the electronic and mechanical shutter modes at base ISO.

    Good news is, DR looks about the same. Basic RawDigger settings show similar numbers too. What I didn't expect to find is difference in sharpness. I don't have a better explanation except for shutter shock since camera was mounted on tripod with a 2-second shutter delay at identical settings in RAW (ISO200, 1/125, f5.6), manually focused once on the same spot in both modes.

    Have a look at the screenshot from LR at 1:1 (left is e-shutter, right is mechanical)
     

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    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
  2. Klorenzo

    Klorenzo Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 10, 2014
    Lorenzo
    AFAIK this is normal: e-shutter avoids any vibration and gives sharper images. Maybe here it's not the real bad shutter shock, but just the normal vibrations that any mechanical shutter has. Shooting with a faster speed should reduce the difference.
    Otherwise could be a focus difference, with grass it's hard to know what it picked up.
     
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  3. m43man

    m43man Mu-43 Veteran

    359
    Aug 28, 2012
    Vancouver
    I know for sure it's not a focus difference, lens was set to Manual focus on the same spot in both modes.

    I shoot mostly in e-mode so it doesn't bother me. Maybe in other shutter speed ranges the shock disappears but at least at 1/60 and 1/125 it's evident so far.
     
  4. Wasabi Bob

    Wasabi Bob Mu-43 Top Veteran

    So, your traditional D-SLR camera has the same situation that occurs at slower shutter speeds, which is known as "mirror slap". This is why you can lock up the mirror. Any mechanical device is going to experience some sort of mechanical vibration at specific conditions where the mechanical structure becomes resonant. Connect a speaker to an audio oscillator and sweep through low frequencies. When you find the resonant freq, it will start vibrating like a buzzer! The electronic shutter feature was created specifically to counteract this. Mostly exaggerated, I've never lost a shot to this. Many will also argue that the EFCS (Electronic First Curtain Shutter) eliminates this, but fail to mention that the even illumination becomes more difficult as the shutter speed increases. This is why the fastest shutter speed of E-M5 Mark II with EFCS is limited to 1/320th.
     
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  5. m43man

    m43man Mu-43 Veteran

    359
    Aug 28, 2012
    Vancouver
    I have not lost a shot due to this vibration yet, mainly because I've been testing the e-mode and staying in this mode exclusively. But for those who prefer the mechanical shutter for its supposed higher DR and prevention of rolling shutter may be surprised by the lack of EFCS, even if it's just enabled up to 1/320th.

    EM5M2 has it, so I really don't understand why it isn't available for GX8 given that GX8 came out months after EM5M2. Hopefully this is something that can be addressed by firmware.
     
  6. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    The difference in dynamic range with the e-shutter was only on a few Panasonic models - the GM1, GM5, GF7, GH4, and G7 (whew - I guess Panasonic releases a lot of cameras!). It did not reduce dynamic range with the G5, G6, GH3, and GX7. This is because Panasonic assumed that people using the electronic shutter would prefer to minimize rolling shutter effects, and so used a lower bit-rate with the electronic shutter on these models.

    With the GX8, it looks like technology has caught up, and they've been able to offer a fast readout rate (approx 1/27s I believe) and full bit-rate RAW files. So the best of all worlds.

    EFCS would be a little better in certain circumstances, but it's never something I'm going to lose sleep over. The quality with the e-shutter is very good and I don't think I've ever lost a shot from it.

    And yeah, 1/125s sounds like right in the region of shutter shock. Not that the degradation is very substantial. Only the most minor of softness when viewed at 100%. And probably only noticeable because you're using a high quality lens.
     
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  7. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    Can you elaborate on this? I've never heard this mentioned, or experienced any issues with EFCS. Also, the 1/320th limit is, I'd assumed, due to the fact that at that speed and above the shutter operates in "slit mode" so there is no need for EFCS at all.
     
  8. b_rubenstein

    b_rubenstein Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 20, 2012
    Melbourne, FL
    There are a number of things in Bob's post that are more than a little shy of being accurate. It would be above 1/320 sec. the shutter is a traveling slit.
     
  9. m43man

    m43man Mu-43 Veteran

    359
    Aug 28, 2012
    Vancouver
    Wow, if GX8 does have full RAW in e-mode, this is great news. Do you have a source for this info? I can't find any references or technical details on it??

    I can't tell DR difference at base ISO and haven't tested higher ISOs, hopefully the DR stays the same in both modes :)
     
  10. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    Only the sorts of anecdotal evidence that you've presented, where people have taken shots with e-shutter and regular shutter and then abused them in post-processing to see the dynamic range. There appears to be no difference on the GX8, just as there is no difference with the GX7. I use my e-shutter and mechanical shutter completely interchangeably, except when trying to freeze motion (faster than 1/500s or so) or indoors with fluorescent lighting, and have noticed no image quality penalty.

    You can see in this GX8 review (Photo By Richard), there is no difference in image quality after a +5 EV push:

    http://photobyrichard.com/reviewbyrichard/panasonic-lumix-gx8-review/

    http://photobyrichard.com/reviewbyrichard/wp-content/uploads/Panasonic_Lumix_Gx8_review_54.jpg
     
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  11. azmerm

    azmerm Mu-43 Regular

    38
    Oct 10, 2013
    Phoenix
    Alan Mermelstein
    I think shutter shock is a real problem for wedding photographers. On a dslr, on tripod, I really don't need to engage mirror lockup below 1/30 sec to avoid mirror shock... and I can still use flash.

    1/60 to 1/160 with fill flash is a very advantageous range for wedding images. On my EM1 I can use the 0sec option to avoid shock in that range.

    But with the GX8 I would have to use the electronic shutter, eliminating fill flash... or shooting below 1/60 when I'd rather not have motion blur... or increase to 1/250 and diminish ambient.

    Alan
     
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  12. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    I think the actual effect of shutter shock is vastly overstated. Perhaps it matters for landscape photographers who are going to be pixel-peeping pine needles on a tree 3 miles away. But for wedding photographers? No one pixel peeps portraits, nor would they want to. Most photos taken in those circumstances are destined for a 8x10" print, or as a worst case scenario for display on a 1920x1080 desktop background.
     
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  13. azmerm

    azmerm Mu-43 Regular

    38
    Oct 10, 2013
    Phoenix
    Alan Mermelstein
    Sorry, but when I had the EP5, before my EM1 and the 0sec fix, I definitely could see a lack of sharpness in shots taken with the EP5 vs my D600/D610 cameras. This using 17mm, 25mm, and 45mm lenses on the EP5... not kit lenses.
     
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  14. Adrian43

    Adrian43 New to Mu-43

    8
    Jul 18, 2010
    I can not imagine what you must photograph, as I have lost many hundreds of critical photographs due to what I can only put down to shutter shock on the GX7. Firstly lets start with sharpness: E-shutter is razor sharp, but my mechanical shutter photos are normally much softer. Why would anyone want to buy good equipment - IE a pro lens - and accept poor results?
    Hence I love the e-shutter, but you can not photograph anything moving fast across the frame with e-shutter as the distortions - in either the subject or background - are just ridiculous. Yet using the mechanical shutter produces (at least 50% of the time) unacceptable image blur at the very least, and a double image at the worst. .... Neither are any good for professional use.

    I believe the 'softness' issue may come from the fact that on the GX7 the sensor stabilisation may be 'jogged' by the mechanical shutter, but the double edge images are probably the whole camera being jogged.

    For those that think they don't get shutter shock or problems with e-shutter; try taking a panning shot of a passing car or cyclist with e-shutter and see how either the background or subject tilts! ...the effect is just like an 150year old wooden box camera has been used, it's a great fun effect but not useful for most serious photographers. So the next choice is the mechanical shutter, so put a long lens on that and shoot some helicopters or old aircraft flying at 1/125 sec to see how many are keepers (you need these slow shutter speeds to get a nice propeller effect and make it look like the aircraft is actually flying!.). Most shots will be unacceptably soft an useless, e-shutter will get them nice and sharp but the propellers are all bent and twisted - go try, check it out!.
    Mechanical shutter is okay on jets though as it is normal to use 1/2000 sec or higher ()but I don't like photographing jets.

    I want to stay with M4/3 as a system, but am finding that more and more the limits in terms of subjects that I can photograph.

    Shutter Shock is definitely NOT overstated!
     
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  15. Klorenzo

    Klorenzo Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 10, 2014
    Lorenzo
    I do not know about the GX7 but with the E-M10 things are much different from the horrible situation you describe. I think I have shutter shock with only one lens and in a very specific range, 1/100-250 I'd say (anti-shock helps a little). Did you took a few test shots with a tripod to see if it is really shutter shock? What lens are you using?
    Do you shoot flying helicopters at 1/125 with a proper stance or maybe pointing up with your back arched backward? Is 1/125 enough to freeze helicopters own vibrations (it's barely enough for normal human movements)?
    I think that shutter shock is often blamed more than it deserves.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
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  16. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    I don't know...

    Here's a photo I took at an airshow. It's definitely not my best work. It's soft, and particularly on the bomb markings underneath the cockpit you can notice it in particular.

    20925550699_2f49451d9e_b.

    Except that this was taken at 228mm and 1/500s, and that's just not fast enough for me to get critically sharp photos of aircraft doing a flyby at 200 mph. I could also blame the difficulty in focussing with a CDAF camera. I could blame my inexperience with the genre (my first time shooting a show). I could blame the 100-300mm lens, which at f5.6 @ 228mm is not the sharpest. But regardless, I'm pleased with the character of the blur on the props, and that's at 1/500s. 1/125s seems like you're asking for trouble, unless you're shooting from a gimbal, or at the very least a sturdy monopod (this was handheld). I know this certainly doesn't disprove the existance of shutter shock, but it shows how incredibly easy it is to get numerous other kinds of blur when shooting in difficult conditions. Basically, I didn't need to blame shutter shock to know that I was at fault for this one.

    I'll defer to your experience in the genre, but I have plenty of shots that are pixel-point sharp that have been shot at 1/125s, even with my GX1 (which has no e-shutter).
     
  17. Adrian43

    Adrian43 New to Mu-43

    8
    Jul 18, 2010
    I am trying to find some useful examples ....that I have not yet deleted - this could take quite a while!
    But as the saying goes - I'll be back :eek:)

    PS. I do mean it really could take quite a long while, as I don't bother keeping poor photos.
     
  18. b_rubenstein

    b_rubenstein Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 20, 2012
    Melbourne, FL
    It's really easy to see if one uses a 1951 Air Force resolution target. If you want to see something, then you need a setup that shows that problem; not a picture that could look like a mess for 5 different reasons.
     
  19. kuau

    kuau Mu-43 Regular

    27
    Oct 17, 2011
    So just to verify a few things on my new GX8
    In terms of best IQ at base ISO there is no advantage of using mechanical shutter over electronic shutter?
    My longest lest is the 75mm Only, do I need to worry about shutter shock?
     
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  20. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    No, all evidence suggests exactly the same image quality with the electronic shutter as with the mechanical shutter, except the e-shutter may be slightly sharper since there is absolutely no chance of shutter shock.

    The focal lengths of your lenses don't really matter for shutter shock, so much as the total conditions you shoot in. As discussed, there is a range of shutter speeds where shutter shock will affect the mechanical shutter. 1/100s or 1/125s is probably the most common, but a range of 1/60s to 1/320s isn't out of the question. However, the fortunate thing is that these shutter speeds are really too slow to sharply freeze motion, so there is almost no negative consequence to using the electronic shutter, which can have rolling shutter artifacts when very fast moving objects are in the frame.

    In my opinion, the only time you won't want to use the electronic shutter are:
    1) When you are trying to freeze motion (faster than 1/320s). This is fine, since the mechanical shutter does not have shutter shock at this speed.
    2) When you are indoors with fluorescent lighting, where any electronic shutter will cause banding. However, this is a pretty difficult lighting situation, so you will likely be pushing up the ISO, in which case you'll unlikely to notice the shutter shock because pixel-level image quality will be degraded by shot noise.
    3) Long exposures and flash photography where the e-shutter is unavailable. That's fine, because again shutter shock does not affect these kinds of shots.

    Try not to overthink it. You really need to pixel peep to notice shutter shock, and it's only within a small range of shutter speeds when used with certain lenses.

    If it bothers you, you can usually get away with almost exclusively using the e-shutter.
     
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