Gonna give FF a try

[Robstar1963]

(Extended write up from a post copied over from the ‘..Fuji XS10... thread I started)

After much thought and an irresistible once only offer turning up I’ve decided to give FF a try and forego returning to Fuji at the moment

I have ordered a Nikon Z6 package with 24-70 f4.0, an FTZ mount adapter and a dedicated Z 70-200 f2.8
Got a huge 20% discount on both items by ordering from a mail order company I deal with - saving £900 - the offer wasn’t coming around again so this for me had to be the time to try FF out
Will be selling off some of my M43 to fund it (some already sold)
Felt it was the time to try out the format due to outgoing model discounts on the Z6 and a good time to dilute my M43 system with the uncertainty surrounding the JIP takeover ?
I only had to pay half now and half in 12 months so will have less pressure to sell some other (M43) gear to fund the new system
The Z6 got (gets) a lot of criticism but some of its features appealed including ergonomics, programmable control rings on some of the lenses, superb low light performance and dynamic range, FTZ adapter for older lenses and large high resolution EVF (among other considerations having spent a lot of time reading up in depth on FF systems in recent weeks)
I considered Sony but criticism ref menus and being very tight size/ergonomically ruled those out (aswell as other quality and weather sealing issues)
Considered Panasonic but the continued insistence on using DFD rather than a Hybrid focussing system is imo a big handicap (and one which has become harder to understand and to justify in the current competitive market imo)
Canon also considered but sensors on the more affordable R and RP models seem inferior to the apparently superb performance of the Z6 sensor
After factoring in the 20% discount and the package deal with the (highly rated) 24-70 f4.0 and Adapter the body has only cost me about £1000 - £1100 which makes it extremely good value and a very low financial risk
I got £560 off of the 70-200 f2.8 which I could not otherwise justify which is apparently produces extremely sharp images
It also has an OLED display which I’ll probably programme to ISO (or aperture ???) along with the programmable control ring as I love having direct control over ISO (or aperture) like the Fuji’s
The downside to the 70-200 is that it is BIG ! but I’m very much looking forward to trying out the system especially at this time of year with failing light levels
I have a couple of old Nikon 35mm film era lenses tucked away somewhere ? here to try on the adapter (manual focus)
Motorsports has been a dead loss to me this year with almost all events I could get to being cancelled, a poor outlook with Covid currently returning and travel having been difficult from the Isle of Wight where almost all events take place - so I’m intending to diversify in terms of what I shoot and a different format will hopefully increase my enthusiasm for other genres
The Z6 is not particularly suited to shooting motorsports but I'm sure I’ll get some good results along the way if and when events are again more accessible to me
I envy @Kae1 who has better access to local tracks - I have my local speedway but this was completely cancelled this year and being that speedway is financially challenged at the best of times I can’t count on that happening next year
Fingers crossed to a better year for all in 2021
@ijm5012

 

[RichardC]

The itch needs to be scratched

 

[BDR-529]

After much thought and an irresistible once only offer turning up I’ve decided to give FF a try and forego returning to Fuji at the moment

I have ordered a Nikon Z6 package with 24-70 f4.0, an FTZ mount adapter and a dedicated Z 70-200 f2.8
Got a huge 20% discount on both items by ordering from a mail order company I deal with - saving £900 - the offer wasn’t coming around again so this for me had to be the time to try FF out

Given that 20% discount was over £900, it's easy to calculate that the price for this kit was somewhere north of £4600. Not exactly my price tag for merely "trying this system out".

I already know the price level because this is almost exactly the same minimum kit I came up with when I calculated how much I must invest to actually get visible IQ improvement under low light conditions which is the only reason why I might ever jump to mirrorless FF bandwagon from m4/3. (just replaced 24-70 with 50mm f/1.8 in my calculation)

Luckily it became obvious that Nikon is going to give 4k60p video update for Z6 II only so Z6 video specs would fall short of even 900€ Panasonic G9 which is the absolute minimum level I would require from a new body, let alone an entirely new mount system. So, I was saved by the bell when I was able to kick Z6 out of my short list.

Now I'm waiting for Sigma to release a less insanely priced equivalent of Nikon Z 70-200 f2.8 for L-mount, should that ever happen.

 

[Robstar1963]

Given that 20% discount was over £900, it's easy to calculate that the price for this kit was somewhere north of £4600. Not exactly my price tag for merely "trying this system out".

I already know the price level because this is almost exactly the same minimum kit I came up with when I calculated how much I must invest to actually get visible IQ improvement under low light conditions which is the only reason why I might ever jump to mirrorless FF bandwagon from m4/3. (just replaced 24-70 with 50mm f/1.8 in my calculation)

Luckily it became obvious that Nikon is going to give 4k60p video update for Z6 II only so Z6 video specs would fall short of even 900€ Panasonic G9 which is the absolute minimum level I would require from a new body, let alone an entirely new mount system. So, I was saved by the bell when I was able to kick Z6 out of my short list.

Now I'm waiting for Sigma to release a less insanely priced equivalent of Nikon Z 70-200 f2.8 for L-mount, should that ever happen.

Hi @BDR-529

Luckily video specs don’t come into my reasoning as I don’t (or at least extremely rarely) do video and basic video capabilities are fine for me

The overal cost and the way I’ve bought into the Nikon system is going to be very much funded by selling off some M43 gear
The EM1X is already gone so the cost of the body is already more than covered and I will now be resorting to my EM1/2 purchased with the Free 1.2 lens offer as my sole M43 body
My M43 system will be retained but very much slimmed down to compliment and fund my new system
Selling other M43 items will fund the 70-200 Lens which at £2399 would for me be very extravagant but at £1839 (official / authorised stock) is very worthwhile and could no doubt be sold without too much of a loss if it doesn’t work out
Ive hopefully purchased with the ability to get back out of the system completely at minimal cost due to the hefty discounts (which were literally a one off opportunity)
I actually spend comparably little each year on my photography due to bargain hunting and very careful buying (which is very much part of the enjoyment for me) and it is my only hobby so don’t begrudge myself the ‘experiment’
I’m actually feeling quite committed and enthusiastic about trying out and using the new system and don’t expect to return to sole M43 use now that Olympus has changed hands (which has sadly despite continuing enthusiasm on my part removed some of my confidence in the system)
I expect to be with the Nikon system for the foreseeable future

 

[bargainguy]

I shoot MFT and Sony FF in equal amounts these days. Couldn't agree more about the arcane Sony menu system, but I'm used to it since I use the RX100 and RX1R in addition to the a7 series.

The big difference when switching systems is the EVF. Every time I switch from Olympus to Sony, big letdown. The Sony EVF is downright murky compared to Olympus, which seems like a breath of fresh air when I switch back. I hope the Z series EVF is much better than Sony in this respect.

Good luck, and let us know how it works out.

 

[BDR-529]

Ive hopefully purchased with the ability to get back out of the system completely at minimal cost due to the hefty discounts (which were literally a one off opportunity)
I actually spend comparably little each year on my photography due to bargain hunting and very careful buying (which is very much part of the enjoyment for me) and it is my only hobby so don’t begrudge myself the ‘experiment’

During summer Z6 body was sold at 1340€ when Nikon tried to desperately gain market share and if you got it even cheaper, you got IMHO best bang for the buck as far as low light IQ is concernerd. The downside is of course that there are no inexpensive alternatives for Nikon Z lenses like the 70-200 f/2.8 which I would have regarded as a mandatory part of my kit as well.

It looks like price war is over for the time being because Z6 II is a *lot* more expensive (2000€ body only) despite having the very same sensor and even body as Z6. Only improvements are a bit faster continuous shooting rate and 4k60p but that's pretty much pointless because it uses APS-C crop and therefore the low light benefit of large FF sensor is totally lost. In other words Z6 II will be at least 600€ more expensive without actually providing any improvement in IQ. (edit: they did also add a second card slot for SDXC cards)

 

[Robstar1963]

Hi @bargainguy
Yes EVFs are a big part of the equation for me
Sometimes they have to be a compromise like on the Fuji XS10 which at the price (And size) and taking other value features into account is perfectly acceptable
The Olympus EM1X EVF was a compromise and not what the camera should have had but it was perfectly useable and at least a good size with good refresh rate for my use
I really don’t understand the economies made with the features on the Sony A7C which I would have considered if not for the size of the EVF and lack of front dial among other things which is just wrong imo for a FF camera along with the Panasonic S5 which has a similarly small EVF
I didn’t realise that the Sony’s had such a bad EVF in comparison with Olympus
The Z6 has a 3.69 mp EVF which by all accounts is a very good experience (I’ve only tried a Z50 recently and only very briefly handled @ijm5012 ‘s Z6 when he was visiting these shores in 2019 so my experience is very limited but qualified to some small extent)
Researching FF cameras recently actually made me appreciate what you get with some of the M43 gear and the value they sometimes offer
The Z6 (and Z7) was criticised quite heavily for having a single card slot (Canon R also has only one) and I would completely agree that this was a poor implementation at launch for a company already in trouble launching a completely new system in the hopes of rejuvenating and possibly saving the company
A single card slot in a £2000 camera which was supposed to woo many of its existing DSLR users and newcomers alike must have cost them a lot of sales - the battery grip not communicating with the camera and not having alternative grip or controls for portrait orientation ( just being a simple battery pack) was also very poorly judged imo
I can accept a single card slot because I am paying roughly half of the price at launch so this is a compromise worth accepting and being XQG / CFExpress would seem to be less risky than a single SD card slot (apparently)
Panasonic not resorting to PDAF on sensor focussing for its LMount bearing in mind the advances made by Sony in particular and Canon cannot be easily justified imo on the grounds of trying to compete with much more advanced hybrid focussing systems
My research has reinforced to me that all cameras are very much a compromise and a product made to a price / profit margin !

 

[Robstar1963]

PS now suffering from camera and system information overload after all the research

 

[RichardC]

It used to be dead easy.

Four/five year product cycles for starters - and upgrades really were upgrades rather than incremental body improvements every 18 months and a new lens mount every 18 minutes. An FE to an FE2 was a no brainer, as was an A1 to a T90. Nip down to your local Jessops or Tecno, and if you were a regular you could stand outside banging frames off with various pieces of equipment until you found something that worked for you.

There are few places left where you can do this now.

 

[Alberta Dave]

@RichardC Ah....Tecno in Birmingham a fine repository of camera gear and home to some of my hard earned cash. Happy days!!!!

 

[RichardC]

@RichardC Ah....Tecno in Birmingham a fine repository of camera gear and home to some of my hard earned cash. Happy days!!!!

I used to work around the corner at Jessops, next door to the Naughty Knicker Shop.

 

[pdk42]

I had a recent foray into Nikon FF. Z7 plus 14-30, 24-70, and (briefly before returning it), 24-200. Despite the IQ, I decided to move on and am firmly back with Oly. But, it's definitely something we all need to try and form our own conclusions. I know many photographers (for whom I have huge respect) who wouldn't touch m43 with a barge-pole.

 

[Alberta Dave]

I used to work around the corner at Jessops, next door to the Naughty Knicker Shop.

I know the one you mean LOL . There were so many good camera stores in the centre of Brum.

 

[RichardC]

I know the one you mean LOL . There were so many good camera stores in the centre of Brum.

There were. In 1984 there was Camera House, Sherwoods, Cine Equipments, Jessops, Tecno all within walking distance of each other.

Cequip got bought by Jessops. Sherwoods is still going by mail order. Rod from Camera House trades in camera gear from home, not far from me. Jessops Smallbrook Queensway is closed down.

Everyone knew each other. Tecno/Jessops frequently, and unofficially of course, lent each other stock - although there was a degree of rivalry.

At Jessops, going next door to 'Lady of Paris' to borrow change was quite an eye opener for a naive 19 year old.

 

[Alberta Dave]

I was trying to think of the lingerie shop's name, thank you for telling me it was "Lady of Paris". I think we have successfully diverted the course of the original thread so we had better quit before the admins get after us. Thanks for the reminisces .

 

[SpecFoto]

Rob, congrats on your purchase, seems you got a terrific price. I have shot Nikon since 1985 and they make wonderful equipment. In looking to get a FF mirrorless camera 2 years ago I looked at the Nikon Z's, but because of the shortcoming in the initial bodies, I went to Sony and the A7III. Nikon has since provided numerous FW updates to the body, something they never did for my D200, 300, 500, 700 or 800 bodies, to make up for some of the initial Z body shortcoming and keep it current. The Nikon AF-C AF system is just terrific, however Nikon chose not to put this AF system in the Z bodies and this is one of the main reasons why I didn't go with them and instead with Sony for FF mirrorless. I understand the March FW update this year helped improve the AF too and made it more in line with the one in the DSLR's. And don't worry about the 1 card slot, the XQD card it is bulletproof and oh so fast. My D500 can write 200 Raw files to the XQD card without any slowdow!

But you will miss the added reach of the M4/3 lenses no doubt. I have a Nikkor 300mm f4 AFS (older pre-PF model) and it is excellent, in the top 3 of my sharpest Nikon lenses for sure. It is just about the same size as the Olympus 300mm f4 Pro, but cost me only $1,000 new. With my D500 it's a 450mm eq. but at 300mm it may not be long enough for your motorsport work, I have used both the 1.4x and 1.7x TC's with this lens with great success. (the 1.7x is a bit more daylight dependent). Couple of my Nikon buddies have the Nikon 200-500 f5.6 lens and it is very sharp and actually inexpensive for Nikon. Though it is a bit big/ heavy to handhold all day, it would work well off a monopod. Yes these lenses mean you need to use the Z adapter for them to AF, but that is the thing, there are so many wonderful Nikkor lenses out there and many can be had used for very reasonable prices.

For me though, after 2 years I have decided to keep my Olympus M4/3 and Sony FF gear, as I like both systems. I am selling my Nikon DSLR equipment, even though I have 20 plus Nikon lenses.

Hope you will continue to post your motorsport work here again once you start up. I always enjoyed it!

 

[pdk42]

The company I work for has Ann Summers as a client. I recall many a trip to their HQ near London and being in meeting rooms with various "merchandise". However, to them it was just a business and the stuff they sold was treated just like a hardware store would treat cans of paint or whatever.

 

[Robstar1963]

I had a recent foray into Nikon FF. Z7 plus 14-30, 24-70, and (briefly before returning), 24-200. Despite the IQ, I decided to move on and am firmly back with Oly. But, it's definitely something we all need to try and form our own conclusions. I know many photographers (for whom I have huge respect) who wouldn't touch m43 with a barge-pole.

Hi @pdk42
The 24-200 you mention - was that the recently released Z Lens - how did you find that as I saw that as a potential FF alternative to the Oly 12-100 which could be a good general walk around lens albeit with variable aperture
Why did you give up on the FF

 

[Robstar1963]

Rob, congrats on your purchase, seems you got a terrific price. I have shot Nikon since 1985 and they make wonderful equipment. In looking to get a FF mirrorless camera 2 years ago I looked at the Nikon Z's, but because of the shortcoming in the initial bodies, I went to Sony and the A7III. Nikon has since provided numerous FW updates to the body, something they never did for my D200, 300, 500, 700 or 800 bodies, to make up for some of the initial Z body shortcoming and keep it current. The Nikon AF-C AF system is just terrific, however Nikon chose not to put this AF system in the Z bodies and this is one of the main reasons why I didn't go with them and instead with Sony for FF mirrorless. I understand the March FW update this year helped improve the AF too and made it more in line with the one in the DSLR's. And don't worry about the 1 card slot, the XQD card it is bulletproof and oh so fast. My D500 can write 200 Raw files to the XQD card without any slowdow!

But you will miss the added reach of the M4/3 lenses no doubt. I have a Nikkor 300mm f4 AFS (older pre-PF model) and it is excellent, in the top 3 of my sharpest Nikon lenses for sure. It is just about the same size as the Olympus 300mm f4 Pro, but cost me only $1,000 new. With my D500 it's a 450mm eq. but at 300mm it may not be long enough for your motorsport work, I have used both the 1.4x and 1.7x TC's with this lens with great success. (the 1.7x is a bit more daylight dependent). Couple of my Nikon buddies have the Nikon 200-500 f5.6 lens and it is very sharp and actually inexpensive for Nikon. Though it is a bit big/ heavy to handhold all day, it would work well off a monopod. Yes these lenses mean you need to use the Z adapter for them to AF, but that is the thing, there are so many wonderful Nikkor lenses out there and many can be had used for very reasonable prices.

For me though, after 2 years I have decided to keep my Olympus M4/3 and Sony FF gear, as I like both systems. I am selling my Nikon DSLR equipment, even though I have 20 plus Nikon lenses.

Hope you will continue to post your motorsport work here again once you start up. I always enjoyed it!

H @SpecFoto
Thanks for the kind comments at the end of your post - not giving up on Motorsports and raring to go again when there are some events to go to
The Z6 arrived today although I haven’t opened it up yet
The 70-200 is on order but not due to arrive until 11/11/20 and will be using that for closer vantage points at racetracks
At the moment I’m intending to use M43 for longer reach Motorsports like Silverstone MotoGP Etc as I can neither afford nor hold the larger FF telephoto lenses.
Talking of TCs however the Z series TCs are supposed to be extremely good on the 70-200 and a 2.0 x TC would take me up to 400mm which is the equivalent to my Panasonic Leica 200mm f2.8 which is a stunningly good M43 Lens
If and when some Motorsports events start up again next season I will probably go ahead and purchase or perhaps rent a 1.4 or 2.0x Z series TC
and if it compares well may sell the PL but it’s early days yet and am reluctant to get rid of the PL until I’m sure it’s the right thing to do as it is so good, so manageable (albeit heavy for M43) and it still has 2 years of a 3 year Panasonic Warranty left to run. Plus they don’t seem to fetch much on eBay surprisingly - I believe it is a much underrated lens which would also be great for the birders amongst us
Glad to hear that your experience with XQD cards is good
I had one arrive today on offer from Amazon but was intending to alternate using a spare when I start at events and rotate them during the day to ensure that any failures don’t take out the whole days shooting but by all accounts those cards are extremely reliable
I’m not expecting too much with regard to the CAF but I’m not greedy and as long as I go home with a few keepers each time I’ll be happy and I’m used to Olympus CAF which isn’t brilliant
I didn’t know how to quantify the CAF of the Z6 as there is little said about fast moving targets within most of the reviews I’ve read and watched - this might be seriously ominous as it might be that the Z6 can’t focus at all well with fast action ? but I’ll just have to give it a try !
I know @ijm5012 has both a D500 and a Z6 and only tends to use the D500 for his motorsports - not sure if this is because the Z6 is only suitable for other genres and is not suitable at all for MSports ?
In any case I’ve ‘made my bed and will have to sleep in it‘ and will have to give it my best shot
I saw some motocross images on FB today which shows at least some promise so fingers crossed ?

 

[dpswbab]

H @SpecFoto
Thanks for the kind comments at the end of your post - not giving up on Motorsports and raring to go again when there are some events to go to
The Z6 arrived today although I haven’t opened it up yet
The 70-200 is on order but not due to arrive until 11/11/20 and will be using that for closer vantage points at racetracks
At the moment I’m intending to use M43 for longer reach Motorsports like Silverstone MotoGP Etc as I can neither afford nor hold the larger FF telephoto lenses.
Talking of TCs however the Z series TCs are supposed to be extremely good on the 70-200 and a 2.0 x TC would take me up to 400mm which is the equivalent to my Panasonic Leica 200mm f2.8 which is a stunningly good M43 Lens
If and when some Motorsports events start up again next season I will probably go ahead and purchase or perhaps rent a 1.4 or 2.0x Z series TC
and if it compares well may sell the PL but it’s early days yet and am reluctant to get rid of the PL until I’m sure it’s the right thing to do as it is so good, so manageable (albeit heavy for M43) and it still has 2 years of a 3 year Panasonic Warranty left to run. Plus they don’t seem to fetch much on eBay surprisingly - I believe it is a much underrated lens which would also be great for the birders amongst us
Glad to hear that your experience with XQD cards is good
I had one arrive today on offer from Amazon but was intending to alternate using a spare when I start at events and rotate them during the day to ensure that any failures don’t take out the whole days shooting but by all accounts those cards are extremely reliable
I’m not expecting too much with regard to the CAF but I’m not greedy and as long as I go home with a few keepers each time I’ll be happy and I’m used to Olympus CAF which isn’t brilliant
I didn’t know how to quantify the CAF of the Z6 as there is little said about fast moving targets within most of the reviews I’ve read and watched - this might be seriously ominous as it might be that the Z6 can’t focus at all well with fast action ? but I’ll just have to give it a try !
I know @ijm5012 has both a D500 and a Z6 and only tends to use the D500 for his motorsports - not sure if this is because the Z6 is only suitable for other genres and is not suitable at all for MSports ?
In any case I’ve ‘made my bed and will have to sleep in it‘ and will have to give it my best shot
I saw some motocross images on FB today which shows at least some promise so fingers crossed ?

You might want to check bythom.com for his insights on how to use C-AF on the Z6. Thom says it works very well for action once you know how to set it up properly.