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GM1 mechanical shutter doesn't work with manual/adapted lenses !

Discussion in 'Panasonic Cameras' started by John-A, Jan 15, 2014.

  1. John-A

    John-A New to Mu-43

    8
    Jan 15, 2014
    Hello,

    I just bought a Panasonic GM1, which I paired with a Voigtländer 25mm 0.95.
    I realize now that whenever a lens without electric contacts (such as the Voigtländer) is mounted, the camera forces the use of the electronic shutter at all speeds, which sometimes results in banding under artificial light. Annoying.
    Since the mechanical shutter gets enabled anyway when the flash is used, I don't understand this restriction.

    Does anyone know a trick to force the GM1 to use the mechanical shutter ?

    Cheers
    John A.
     
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  2. Amin Sabet

    Amin Sabet Administrator

    Apr 10, 2009
    Boston, MA (USA)
    I don't have a GM1, but I think you must be missing a setting somewhere. Can't imagine they would have such a restriction!
     
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  3. Aegon

    Aegon Mu-43 Veteran

    334
    Nov 3, 2011
    Portland, OR
    I thought this was interesting, taken from the manual:

    • When a lens not based on the Micro Four Thirds System standard/Four Thirds System
    standard is used, [AUTO] takes pictures with the electronic shutter except when, for example, the flash is used for taking pictures. Also, [EFC] switches to [AUTO].
     
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  4. wushumr2

    wushumr2 Mu-43 Regular

    137
    May 20, 2013
    So shooting in automatic will do that, but switching to any other mode probably changes it.
     
  5. John-A

    John-A New to Mu-43

    8
    Jan 15, 2014
    The camera does indeed what the manual (quoted by Aegon) says : when I mount the Voigtländer lens, the mechanical shutter option becomes grayed out, leaving only the [ESHTR] (=electronic shutter) or [AUTO] options available. Then, even in [AUTO] mode the mechanical shutter won't work..
    So I'm afraid I'm not missing a setting. This restriction simply doesn't make sense to me !
     
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  6. RoadTraveler

    RoadTraveler Mu-43 All-Pro

    Nov 23, 2012
    Wow, that really sucks, sorry to hear that…

    I like and use an SLR Magic and two Voigtlander manual lenses. While I'd probably prefer to continue using them on a larger body like my GX1(s), this silly restriction 'might' keep me from continuing to consider the GM1.

    Why would Panasonic do this other than to prevent the use of (the competition's) manual lenses? Surely the few manual lenses used/sold can't be much of a threat to their lens system?
     
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  7. RnR

    RnR Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 25, 2011
    Brisbane, Australia
    Hasse
    Looks like I'm using the PM1 for a while longer... shazbot =(
     
  8. Aegon

    Aegon Mu-43 Veteran

    334
    Nov 3, 2011
    Portland, OR
    I don't think Panasonic set out to hamper users of adapted lenses. I think they probably found some obscure limitation of their single-curtain shutter.

    The GM1 has a non-standard mechanical shutter. You can see a little more detail about it here: http://cameras.reviewed.com/content/panasonic-lumix-gm1-digital-camera-review

    I can't imagine what problem is solved by this limitation, but I don't think Panasonic's motivation is necessarily evil.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. John-A

    John-A New to Mu-43

    8
    Jan 15, 2014
    Yes Aegon, I had read about the special 'step motor' shutter before, and I also suspect it might be linked to it, but can't figure out how..

    At first I thought it was in case one mounts some funky adapted lens with a rear element that would protrude too much inside the body and would be in the way of the shutter blades. The use of electronic shutter would then prevent damaging the blades. But since the mechanical shutter is automatically enabled when the flash is used (and in that case, works just fine with the Voigtländer lens !), the explanation must be something else.

    Also, each time the camera is turned on (with - or without - any kind of lens), the mechanical shutter quickly closes and opens. Each time. Just as if the camera was saying : " you see : I can do it if I want ! It's just to bother you ! "
     
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  10. Amin Sabet

    Amin Sabet Administrator

    Apr 10, 2009
    Boston, MA (USA)
    This is the information I got from a contact at Panasonic:

    Maybe they meant to say "To control the mechanical 2nd curtain shutter, the GM1 has to communicate with lens"? Otherwise it doesn't make sense to me.

    I pretty much always use the electronic shutter on my GX7 and having had the banding problem yet, but I know it will happen in certain lighting.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. RoadTraveler

    RoadTraveler Mu-43 All-Pro

    Nov 23, 2012
    I didn't necessarily think/hope it was 'evil', but was not thinking about the extreme compactness of the camera. :smile:

    The size and mechanical limitations required by the design make sense. I'm impressed by the dimensions of the GM1, though not sure it's a body for me the more I learn about it.
     
  12. John-A

    John-A New to Mu-43

    8
    Jan 15, 2014
    Thanks Amin, that's interesting !

    Why should the camera need to communicate with the lens in order to fire the mechanical shutter remains a mystery to me .. (especially since using the flash does bypass this issue).

    The banding under artificial light doesn't always happen indeed. In my own (short) experience with the GM1, I never have it if I use speeds slower than about 1/125th. With faster speeds, the intensity of banding is proportional to the speed, but is also related to the type of light (fluorescent or incandescent). I've read somewhere that it's related to the current frequency (50Hz in Europe and 60Hz in US) vs the shutter speed. There's an interesting article discussing this (and other electronic shutter related issues) here : http://m43photo.blogspot.fr/2013/03/gh3-electronic-shutter.html
     
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  13. dolbydunn

    dolbydunn Mu-43 Regular

    52
    Dec 28, 2013
    Ohio
    As a former camera repairman I can think of perfectly justifiable reasons for disabling the mechanical shutter. Once the electronics of the lens mount detects that a non-standard lens is mounted, the camera then has no information about the depth of protrusion of the unknown lens. Perhaps the mechanical shutter is disabled to protect it from collision with the unknown lens.

    Consider this; it the mechanical shutter gets caught on or in a non-standard lens, any attempt on the part of the camera user to detach the lens could rip the mechanical shutter apart.

    There are perhaps other safety conditions which could require disabling the shutter. Cameras with mirrors have the same concern about collision between the mirror movement and rear elements of the lens.
     
  14. tjdean01

    tjdean01 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    842
    Feb 20, 2013
    Cross GM1 off my list! I'll just have to buy its little lens separately and pop 'er on a PM2!

    To refresh my understanding, an electronic shutter works fine at high shutter speeds, but negatively affects image quality at slower speeds, is this correct? What is the cut off speed where it starts to impact quality?

    As to speculate, I also can't understand why they would completely disable this! I'm shocked no one has noticed yet! Having it off by default deep in menu with a "Warning, use of aftermarket pinhole or other lenses that protrude past plane of lens mount may damage shutter and/or sensor." Maybe it's because of the larger image circle of the adapted lenses and how the extra light reflects around and maybe it gets underneath the shutter and overexposes? Or it gets too hot? So weird!
     
  15. John-A

    John-A New to Mu-43

    8
    Jan 15, 2014
    Dolbydunn, I discussed this in an earlier post in this thread : that's what I thought first as well, but since the mechanical shutter gets enabled even with unknown lenses when the flash is used, this argument wouldn't work here.. There must be some other reason though.
     
  16. John-A

    John-A New to Mu-43

    8
    Jan 15, 2014
    tjdean01, this link I posted before (http://m43photo.blogspot.fr/2013/03/...c-shutter.html) will answer your question better than me :)
     
  17. dolbydunn

    dolbydunn Mu-43 Regular

    52
    Dec 28, 2013
    Ohio
    Yes John, I went back through the thread and found your earlier post. (Sorry I missed it the first time). I too have the GM1 and I am very happy with the performance I get from the 12-32 included zoom lens.

    This camera is such a specialty product that Panasonic sold it with a High Quality Zoom lens of very useful range.

    I have NOT even tried to mount any of my other COMPATIBLE Panasonic lenses because the camera is perfect as sold. (However I do plan to mount my O45/1.8 to the GM1 someday as it appears to be a perfect match (size, color, etc.).

    I have seen all over the internet examples where people are "futzing" with this camera trying to mount ridiculous, telescopes, and huge hunks of glass onto this tiniest of all m43 cameras . . . what for?

    Though I don't understand this obsession with mounting huge "dumb" lenses from 40 - 50 years ago, onto the smallest and most modern of cameras, (virtually the modern Minox), I do wish you well . . . However, I don't see the difference between mounting a huge 1960's telescope onto the GM1 . . . and putting a 427ci engine in a 1950's Volkswagen.
     
  18. John-A

    John-A New to Mu-43

    8
    Jan 15, 2014
    Dolbydunn, I agree with you : I first bought the GM1 for it's small size, and enjoy the kit zoom lens, which quality is indeed quiete remarquable.

    However, the Voigtländer 25mm 0.95 fits suprisingly well on it, adding nothing to the height of the camera (unlike the Pana 25mm 1.4), and is a joy to use with focus peaking (and occasionnaly the "loupe" which can be conveniently brought up by double tapping anywhere on the screen).

    This way I have 2 systems in one : a very small, light and versatile one with the kit zoom, and a heavier and bigger (but still very reasonnable) one with gorgeous IQ and shallow DOF.
    I'm not so much into digital cameras (I mostly use medium format film cameras for "serious" work), so I wouldn't consider buying a second bigger, more adapted m43 body for the Voigtländer..
     
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  19. RichDesmond

    RichDesmond Mu-43 Veteran

    356
    Nov 18, 2011
    But of course, people did stuff huge V8s into VW Bugs. :) There was even a generic name for them, "Thunder Bugs".

    Just human nature I guess. :)
     
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  20. tjdean01

    tjdean01 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    842
    Feb 20, 2013
    I wouldn't say it's an "obsession," rather, for most people it's a "solution" or an "experimentation." You yourself have mentioned interest in the 42/1.2 lens but can't comfortably afford it. Many are in the same boat. We want it, but not for $1500 or whatever it costs. If you were willing to accept a "dumb" lens, you could grab a 50/1.4 for around $50 and enjoy a lens with similar specs and learn a bit about aperture and MF to boot. I know a photography student with little to no money who bought all her lenses at Goodwill for like $20 and is very happy and enjoys herself.

    As for experimenting, let's say you want to be able to shoot deer that come in your backyard once a year. Not even a rich man would buy a modern 200mm lens that he plans on using once a year. But if it's $20 at Goodwill, why not?

    Finally, about these lenses being "dumb" I beg to differ. In 10 years from now what will become of an $800 Olympus 75/1.8 lens? Will m4/3s be around? The lens will vignette on APS cameras, even if they mounted, which they don't. Will they continue to make a smaller sensor ICL camera? For those with these lenses, we hope so. For those with a 30 year old lens with amazing build quality designed to use a full frame sensor, they'll be able to use their lenses for decades, as has already been proven.

    So cost, fun, build quality, timelessness, vintage fun factor, etc. Some people would much prefer a 28/2, 40/1.8, 50/1.7, 57/1.7, 75/1.8, 135/3.2, and 200/3.5 and have spent $4-500 than to have a 35-100/2.8 for $1200. Not an obsession, a logical preference.
     
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