1. Reminder: Please use our affiliate links for holiday shopping!

Front dial vs Mode dial for special mode access

Discussion in 'Back Room' started by heli-mech, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    Haven't "Art filter" been on the mode dials for some time now? Same with "scene modes" talked about in the link above. And with a little setup you can program mysets to the mode dial or a button (for a monochrome setting for instance). I completely accept that some find it useful and like it, but I fail to see the big advantage to putting these features on a dedicated non-customizable dial.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
  2. DHart

    DHart Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 7, 2010
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Don
    The 'big advantage' some enjoy by having a dedicated dial (there are actually TWO dedicated dials for art filter customization), is the ability to more quickly and easily customize the art filter options!

    Some would see the two dedicated controls as a nice advantage and others may not, which is true of almost any feature, inside or outside, of any camera you might consider. Camera designers and engineers create different cameras for different sets of needs, knowing that not every camera will perfectly suit everybody, or anybody in particular.

    Many photographers will (and do) love these features instantly available on the front dial and have no desire whatsoever to program the dial to do something else - especially when there are, what, 5 or 6 other controls on the PEN-F that are custom programmable? There are more custom programmable controls on the PEN-F than I would ever need.

    In addition, there are new features available in the PEN-F (film-emulation modes with ability to dial in various 'color' filters to the B&W film, and various degrees of 'film-grain', just like shooting different B&W films and choosing to use yellow, orange, red filters, etc... Much as we film photographers did, with great effect, for so many years) that are instantly available with this dial.

    Certainly, as with any other particular camera that you might consider, indications are, from all of the commentary you've made about the camera in this and the other thread, that the PEN-F probably isn't quite the camera for you. BUT, the great news is that we're so fortunate these days to have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to camera choices. There is something suitable (though none are ever perfect) out there for pretty much EVERYbody.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    I am just trying to establish if there is some hidden value I am missing, hopefully that is ok with you? The new features are not dependant on the front dial are they, they just happen to be setup that way on the PEN-F, correct? For instance if Olympus were to grant the extra film emulations to the E-M1, one in theory, would be able to set them up like any other myset or art filter, would you not? or am I overlooking some additional features that the front dial offers? I simply am just seeing all the posts about the ease of access and am trying to understand the difference between accessing art filters or other setups from a front dial vs mode dial or button, both for my benefit and others...
     
  4. DHart

    DHart Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 7, 2010
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Don
    Andrew... Perfectly fine by me. I just don't feel that I should try to make you feel that YOU need this particular camera, as you have expressed strong dislike for a prominent feature of the camera numerous times. That's why I suggested that perhaps this isn't THE camera for you.

    I'm sure that with another camera body design, the new film-emulation features would not have to be dependent on, say, a 'front dial', but the designers and engineers created this camera to use the front dial that way. One can like it, tolerate, it, dislike it, take it, or leave it. This particular camera was designed this way and that's just how it is.

    If Olympus wanted to provide access to these film emulation modes with other bodies, I'm sure they could be worked into another camera (EM1ii, perhaps) somehow, through a variety of means, menus, controls, etc. Perhaps with new firmware? But I don't know for sure about that, at all.

    With the PEN-F, they are controlled with TWO dedicated controls: the front dial and with a small lever that sits under the mode dial. Now that I have some good use with the camera, I don't find the front control detracts from the camera at all, nor am I lacking any user-custom-programmability due to the presence of this front control knob. I happen to find that the quick and easy access is great. And it looks as though many other people appreciate this feature, as well.

    As to whether Olympus will make previously existing bodies capable of offering film-emulation controls, I have absolutely no idea on whether that could or will ever happen. Once could speculate, but....?
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  5. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    Perhaps my fault but you seem to have missed my question/wondering. I have just seen "owners" post on what they like about the front dial which is fair enough so I am trying to understand and not pass judgement. My question to any PEN-F owner is: other than simply being in a different place vs mode dial access or a programmed button is there some other benefit that myself or a person interested in the PEN-F may not realize on first glance that the front dial offers?

    You seem quick to point out that I shouldn't make judgements without handling the camera so I am asking questions, it would be nice for the benefit of the forum if you could either answer without presumptions to my intent or just not answer at all.
     
  6. Catch22nm

    Catch22nm Mu-43 Regular

    68
    May 10, 2015
    There really is no other major benefit.

    But there are some really awesome Minor benefits!

    1) I find that having it there (and it being dedicated) makes it easy for me to try out different shots and modes that I otherwise wouldn't for two reasons. One being that I hate going into menus (or reprogramming other valuable buttons) for things while shooting and two in some low light and very bright daylight situations I can quickly try out my custom modes to see IF I can get a shot that I otherwise might think looks too dark or too washed out.

    2) Sometimes I like the dial to rest my finger on as it can be a good place to hold the camera steady

    3) It works in concert with the "mysets" or now "Custom Modes" giving you like 30+ combos of cool things you can do. For example I have a "Frank Miller" mode AKA Black and white and Reds only set to "color dial" in C1. So in practice If I see some situation where I want this sweet "Frank Miller esque" color combo in a shot all I have to do is make sure I am in C1 (my normal everyday Aperture Priority mode) and switch the front dial to "Color" and the myset is set to automatically throw me in "frank miller mode. After I take the shot I also get the Raw image if I decide I want the rest of the colors back later. Then when I am done I just switch the front dial back to the center and I am back to normal. This would be impossible to do quickly with any other camera. And its just damn cool. Also if Olympus had not put a dial specifically for these modes I wouldn't find the energy to go into the menu and try this out as often if at all.

    I am sure other pen users can name off more than that those are just what I can think of from the top of my head. It just makes things more convienent and give people more reason to play and have fun. For people who find themselves thinking that they would never want play around with stuff like that, the Pen might not be the camera for those individuals. Also, of course some of these things could probably be achieved in post but who has all that time?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
    • Like Like x 5
  7. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    Thank you. Looking at #3 that might be something I did not know. Are you saying that that the chosen settings for the front dial are remembered for each C setting on the mode dial? Meaning within a limited set of parameters there is some customization to the front dial? So C1 you could setup the mono setting to B&W mode 1 and then C2 you could set it to B&W mode 2?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Catch22nm

    Catch22nm Mu-43 Regular

    68
    May 10, 2015
    Totally yes! What you just said Is what I was trying to say in my OP. Figuring out all of what you can do with the cusmization of the Pen F is actually easier to do in real life than trying to explain it in writing. It is great for someone like me who loves to customize things because in each C mode I have different presets for each front dial mode option. In C1 / Color its the Frank Miller "reds" mode in C2 / Color its "heavy blues preset. in C3 /color its Vivid In C1 / Mono its low grain mono in C2 / Mono its no grain mono / etc etc. you can do whatever you want and its just a flick of the dial. so technically if you reserve and dont mess with the two modes that are Olympus defaults you can have up 3 preset Ill call them "favorites" in each front dial setting (color / CRT and Mono - not sure about art as I don't mess with that) for each Cd dial ..

    Thats makes 4X4 options so you can have 16 total completely user set custom "favorites" without even messing with Olympus recommended film emulation modes. these Favorites allow you instant access to completely user defined modes with just the flick of the switch. And when you are setting up the Custom modes/mysets if you have the mode set as the default in the Super control panel when you set the myset it will bring that up by default right away when on that front dial position.

    For example I have mine set like this:

    If I am in C1 -> And I switch to Color on the front dial -> Then it defaults to "frank miller reds" mode first and it pops up in that mode automagically. (because when I set the myset up thats how I had it and wanted it so it plays nice remembers that)

    I cannot stress enough that it all just works and makes sense. I used to hate mysets and get so confused. I used to always lose the mysets and when I tried to program them there was always some weird issues. I now love Custom modes because it all works without having to have a PHD in Math.

    I know for a fact that the C1 -C4 needs to be on every Olympus camera from here on out. The front dial, I think will be reserved for the Pen F.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Appreciate Appreciate x 1
  9. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    Re-reading your OP in conjunction with these last few posts makes more sense. In all honesty you can do similar with mysets on other olympus's (for instance because I don't use the record button it is my instant access button to a Mono myset) but the PEN-F would definitely seem to offer more options/customizations, for those that want that, due to the extra physical control.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. DHart

    DHart Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 7, 2010
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Don
    And, yes, one can achieve similar B&W film-emulations in post with programs such as Silver EFEX Pro and color film emulations with Color EFEX Pro, from pretty much any digital file. So, while the PEN-F isn't required to achieve this, it sure makes it quick and easy to do.

    Remember, there are TWO dedicated controls to access and make changes to the various filters: the front control knob and the small lever under the mode dial. These make quick changes easy without having to go into the menu system.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
  11. DHart

    DHart Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 7, 2010
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Don
    Andrew...yes, I believe that I already answered this point in my earlier reply: there is additional benefit offered by the PEN-F that (as far as I know) has not been offered on previous Olympus cameras: some film-emulation modes, with custom color B&W filters, and customizable levels of 'film-grain'. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong about this, but from what I have read, there are NEW, previously un-available, film-emulation modes that are integrated into the front control panel of the Pen-F.

    AND... There are TWO dedicated filter controls, one on the front of the camera and a lever under the mode dial. Thus, you have more direct control over filters than possible on any previous Olympus camera.

    I have never been one to use art filters on ANY of my previous Olympus cameras, though, and I am also not one who has been motivated to create custom my-sets and that kind of thing. I have tended to use my cameras with RAW capture and very little automation... with an emphasis on manual control, primarily. I come from decades of metering with a hand held meter and setting my exposures on camera fully manually. So...as for comparisons to exactly what ArtFilters are new and which are not new to the Pen-F, I will have to defer to others.

    Again, as far as I know, the Pen-F has new film-emulation filters and customization that have not been offered by Olympus before the PEN-F. And access to them is made very simple, and quickly, with the two dedicated controls (front panel and under the mode dial).

    Once more, I must defer to others when it comes to the more complex questions of programming of custom presets, my sets, and such; that is not an area of expertise of mine. Generally, that stuff has been MORE than I have wanted to deal with, programming-wise, with my cameras. I see cameras more as cameras, not so much as computers, even though they are now essentially computers with interchangeable lenses. This is one of the reasons why I like the way the film-emulation modes have been worked into the PEN-F... Accessing and controlling them is direct and EASY.

    It certainly looks like Catch22 is far more versed in the aspects of custom-programming the controls of the PEN-F than I am, so we can both learn from his expertise.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  12. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    Don, not interested in going back and forth on this but my question was not about the feature differences but how one accesses those features. The way some have described the front dials use it appeared to offer zero advantage over just turning the mode dial, in other words if the PEN-F didn't have a front dial but instead a mono/color/art position on the mode dial how would it be different? What would be lost? Catch22 understood and addressed this in his response.
     
  13. DHart

    DHart Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 7, 2010
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Don
    Andrew... The new film-emulation features, ALL the art filter features, in fact, are ONLY available with the front dial, as far as I know.

    So, I really don't understand the value of your question. By asking "if the PEN-F did NOT have a front dial, but instead had a mono/color/art position on the mode dial, how would it be different?" Isn't the answer obvious? It wouldn't have a front dial. And some functionality would be lost by not having the dedicated lever under the mode dial. But that is fantasy land, not discussing the existing camera as it was designed.

    How does that question and answer advance any discussion about this camera? Yes, the control could have been placed on the top, the back, even the bottom of the camera if that is where the designers wanted to put it. But they designed it to be on the front and to work in conjunction with the new lever under the mode dial. This makes for quicker and more extensive control over the filters than you could possibly have by just having a stop on the mode dial.

    If you think the control for art filters should have been elsewhere, or done differently, that's fine. But the fact is that the controls are where they are and there is no changing that... So, why are we going around and around in circles over it?
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  14. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    Nope just you going in circles @DHart@DHart, Catch22 understood and answered and I am sure someone will appreciate the clarification/information even if you can't. My repeated rephrasing of the question was soley to try and help you understand as you kept replying but instead it lead to obvious confusion on your part so I apologize, maybe next time don't answer if you don't understand the question... Or PM.
     
  15. DHart

    DHart Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 7, 2010
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Don
    Human communication is constantly subject to utter failure. It is difficult to truly communicate clearly.

    What you asked is (aside from, "other than" where it is located) does the front dial offer any benefit (vs. previous or other camera models?) and the answer is that on the PEN-F, the front dial (aside from WHERE it is located) gives access to NEW filters that were not previously available on other Olympus cameras AND the NEW lever under the mode dial allows fast and easy changes to the art filters.

    However, if what you meant to ask is: if putting the dial on the front offers anything more than if the control would have been built into the mode dial, or into a custom dial on the back, or the side, or the bottom???

    Then I'd say the answer would be that you would have to have a LOT of stops on that mode wheel! Not as good a solution as having the TWO dedicated controls that are provided on the Pen-F!

    The fact that one of the controls is on the front of the camera seems troubling to some. I haven't found the placement to be a problem at all. But if you don't like it on the front, then this design may not be for you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
  16. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    :026:There have been numerous posts regarding the advantages to the front dial, but as they have been described I really couldn't understand the big deal because you could do the same thing on other Olympus's (ie quickly change to a bw preview, I do it all the time with a single button press) or access art filters (by turning a mode dial) So I was asking owners what other advantages does the front dial offer that someone may not realize, which Catch22 answered.

    Granted I forgot to ask your permission but honestly other than not being clear in my first post that I was asking a question, I really didn't think even you would have an issue with me seeking some clarification. Guess I was wrong... Again the PM system does work despite your reluctantance to respond to them, it certainly would reduce these nonsense back and forths for everyone else.
     
  17. DHart

    DHart Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 7, 2010
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Don
    Andrew... While you could access filters with the mode dial before, NO, you could not "do the same thing on other Olympus's", as there are new filters available now, which can easily be customized with the new control wheel AND the new filter lever.

    The 'big deal' (for some users) with the Pen-F is not so much where the controls are placed, it is the new film-emulation modes, not previously available on other Olympus cameras, that are quickly accessible and quickly customizable by the TWO dedicated art filter controls.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
  18. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    Again, Catch answered the question perfectly, no need for any more responses on the matter, can't you just accept that?

    Sent via mu-43 app