Friends what do you think of this new model.....?

Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
257
Location
Switzerland
Real Name
Siegfried
sometimes I can't tell if people are high, trying to be funny, or just a bit challenged. this thread is one of those times. :)
No its not - the SNR base noise theory left ISO hanging in air - people do not talk about it but still use it. The result is one of the most important digital camera functions is not well understood..... That's my point, what will replace the original triangle and its NOT the SNR theory.....the latter only explains the origins of noise NOT the how to...... :)
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
257
Location
Switzerland
Real Name
Siegfried
Work ?

To me, simply explaining in words that image brightness depends on the effect of aperture, ISO and shutterspeed on the available light "works" much more clearly than those images.
Having Exposure in there makes sense, but then, wouldn't it be logic to have Light Input in there as well ?
Yes I agree - it should be possible to have exposure, total image brightness, base ISO all in one simple model (triangle) that is easy to explain and easy to remember once explained.

In general.....I appreciate some the light hearted replies....but I did hope to see a little more depth also :) I expected this forum has the goods to develop something great.....?
 

barry13

Mu-43.com Editor
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
9,757
Location
Southern California
Real Name
Barry
Yes I agree - it should be possible to have exposure, total image brightness, base ISO all in one simple model (triangle) that is easy to explain and easy to remember once explained.

In general.....I appreciate some the light hearted replies....but I did hope to see a little more depth also :) I expected this forum has the goods to develop something great.....?
Hi Siegfried, to me, having the variables on the edges of the triangle is easier to understand than on the corners.
see https://photographylife.com/what-is-exposure-triangle for reference.

Maybe you can explain why you think yours is clearer? Otherwise, we're just going off the image itself.
 

Hannety

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Aug 15, 2019
Messages
129
I think this is a much more useful triangle representation

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
 

thazooo

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
May 24, 2012
Messages
64
Location
Mississippi, USA
Real Name
Dana F.
Wither it's ASA or ISO the triangle was presented with an explanation of how it works . Either from school class or reading books. It wasn't made to stand alone. It's not as simple as glance at it and have an understanding of exposure.
 

twigboy

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Sep 10, 2016
Messages
902
Location
Virginia
No its not - the SNR base noise theory left ISO hanging in air - people do not talk about it but still use it. The result is one of the most important digital camera functions is not well understood..... That's my point, what will replace the original triangle and its NOT the SNR theory.....the latter only explains the origins of noise NOT the how to...... :)
How so? With film one could (with those cameras so equipped) change the ASA (ISO) setting on the camera which in turn affected how the camera metered the other two sides, but the results in the film did change and were developed with the ASA in mind. https://thedarkroom.com/pushing-and-pulling-film/
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
257
Location
Switzerland
Real Name
Siegfried
How so? With film one could (with those cameras so equipped) change the ASA (ISO) setting on the camera which in turn affected how the camera metered the other two sides, but the results in the film did change and were developed with the ASA in mind. https://thedarkroom.com/pushing-and-pulling-film/
I don't think we disagree. My initial question was....is there a way to make ISO and its role easier to understand and work with? Should we design an updated image brightness (not exposure) triangle?
 

Joris

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Messages
334
Location
Picardie, France
Work ?
To me, simply explaining in words that image brightness depends on the effect of aperture, ISO and shutterspeed on the available light "works" much more clearly than those images.
Having Exposure in there makes sense, but then, wouldn't it be logic to have Light Input in there as well ?
In general.....I appreciate some the light hearted replies....but I did hope to see a little more depth also :) I expected this forum has the goods to develop something great.....?
My answer was serious, somewhat anyway... To me this triangle shows the tools that affect exposure, but for this representation to "work", as said, it needs to show the material and the product. Right now to me it is as if you show a triangle with a hammer, a chisel and a plane. Without the raw material, wood, and the product, a chair, they make no sense :)
 

Brownie

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
2,047
Location
SE Michigan
Real Name
Tim
My answer was serious, somewhat anyway... To me this triangle shows the tools that affect exposure, but for this representation to "work", as said, it needs to show the material and the product. Right now to me it is as if you show a triangle with a hammer, a chisel and a plane. Without the raw material, wood, and the product, a chair, they make no sense :)
Yes and no. It can be displayed with as much information as you like:

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


Or in simple form like Bushman posted:

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


What is the application? If the idea is to get someone with zero knowledge up to speed, the first example has far too much information. In that case the second example makes more sense and you would add information added as you go. This is one of the first topics in a beginner's class.

You guys have to remember you're looking at this through experienced eyes.
 

Hannety

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Aug 15, 2019
Messages
129
You guys have to remember you're looking at this through experienced eyes.
What is the point of either of those images being a triangle? Why wouldn't the top one be better shown as thee rows where at least the brighter arrows could point in the same direction? (and frankly why bother showing the bottom one at all).
 

Brownie

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
2,047
Location
SE Michigan
Real Name
Tim
What is the point of either of those images being a triangle? Why wouldn't the top one be better shown as thee rows where at least the brighter arrows could point in the same direction? (and frankly why bother showing the bottom one at all).
There is no point. I didn't design it, the triangle has been around for a very long time. If you read my post, you'll understand what the point is. This is beginner info. It all depends on how much information you want to throw at a newbie right off the bat. The ovals shown in a previous post also work.
 

bassman

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
1,149
Location
New Jersey
Real Name
The Bassman
With all due respect, all it does for me is suggest there is a relationship amongst the three settings. It doesn’t tell me what that relationship is, or How I might manipulate the settings to achieve some photographic objective.

Perhaps others are more perceptive than I am.

Just one bassman’s opinion.
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
257
Location
Switzerland
Real Name
Siegfried
With all due respect, all it does for me is suggest there is a relationship amongst the three settings. It doesn’t tell me what that relationship is, or How I might manipulate the settings to achieve some photographic objective.

Perhaps others are more perceptive than I am.

Just one bassman’s opinion.
Hello Bassman

Its simple....3 main points to reduce/manage noise

1. Expose the sensor into its sweet spot
2. Use IBIS to help you keep the ISO as low as possible
3. I show different camera features that will help you achieve the above

If you want to know the why....you will find it in the article

Hope this helps
Siegfried
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
257
Location
Switzerland
Real Name
Siegfried
Thank you for all the feedback and discussion, I followed it all but did not always reply as I was in the deep end on something else.... :)

The contention many has with the original/existing exposure triangle is terminology and the explanation of the ISO setting. In most cases the ISO is described as adjusting sensor gain which you will agree is not the case....

That is I believe 80% plus of the existing exposure triangle concept is extremely valuable.

Brownie posted a great example. I would only replace the ISO description with "ISO sets the gain for the entire imaging system"

Best
 
Last edited:

PakkyT

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
3,001
Location
New England
Are we being pranked with these posts? I am starting to think these are all a very elaborate setups for some huge joke on all of us.
 
Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Mu-43 is a fan site and not associated with Olympus, Panasonic, or other manufacturers mentioned on this site.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Copyright © 2009-2019 Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom