FOSS Photography

mcasan

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
1,735
Location
Atlanta
Built a new machine with parts that were Christmas and birthday gifts. :thumbup:

OS options I considered:
  • Windows native mode
  • Hackentosh via OpenCore
  • Hachentosh via type 2 hypervisor running on top of Windows or Linux
  • Hackentosh via type 1 hypervisor "bare metal" with GPU pass through over Linux
  • Linux native mode
I went native, Linux that is. Yep, free and open sourced software (FOSS). Loaded the machine with Linux Mint distro (0$) and several photo apps (0$) such as raw therapee, darktable, and GIMP.

"Fasten your seat belts. This is going to be a bumpy night." :hide:
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
254
You should be fine. I have never used any photography related products on Windows. Started my photography hobby after I switched to Linux.

I am using Geeqie for culling, RawTherapee for RAW editing and GIMP for local adjustments.

Darktable is pretty nice but seems to be in an in-between state: they recommend the "filmic" workflow now, but that has not fully matured yet. I have also never been able to get the colours right in Darktable with my Panasonic G80 files. It's a cool project though, with lots of exciting new developments.
 

Darmok N Jalad

Temba, his aperture wide
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
1,039
Location
Tanagra (not really)
Real Name
Randy
Darktable is a very viable solution, so once you get your workflows in order, it’s not too bad. Get OpenCL running on it (which can be a pain), and it’s pretty speedy, too. I’ve ventured into Linux for this purpose before, and my issue always comes down to cloud storage and sharing. It’s just so easy with Apple Photos, and there are few good native Linux cloud clients. Dropbox has the best support, but they need to offer a cheaper plan than 1TB. If they ever did, I might make the switch myself.
 

mcasan

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
1,735
Location
Atlanta
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Raw Therapee kicks butt. Adjustments I have seen in other apps.
 

cjoliprsf

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
165
Location
Quebec, Canada
Real Name
Claude
I am also on Linux Mint, and I like it! I do also have a Windows computer, but as soon as Windows is going to slow down on that one it will become another linux machine.
I have played with both darktable and rawtherapee, and for my needs, I find rawtherapee works better. There is one thing however that darktable does better, and it is the perspective correction tool which is awsome in darktable.

As a program to make a first evaluation of your photos, renames, and culls, you may consider XnViewMP - works nicely.
And for downloading from the camera, make sure you install Rapid Photo Downloader, another awsome program that lets you rename the photos or create directories in function of the exif data or many other parameters. I find it so good that even on my Windows machine, I use it inside a Linux virtual machine.
 

junkyardsparkle

haunted scrap heap
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
2,481
Location
Brennschluss
Darktable is pretty nice but seems to be in an in-between state: they recommend the "filmic" workflow now, but that has not fully matured yet.
It could arguably be called "mature-ish" in the upcoming (hopefully next month) 3.2 release... of course, this means adjusting to yet another iteration of the "filmic" module (v4)... the main difference being that the gray level control is hidden by default to encourage use of the exposure module to boost midtones to the desired level early in the processing pipeline, with filmic applying S-curve and saturation models at the other end. It's also possible to get filmic to do more camera-like curves now without resorting to an additional curves module. The new stuff for processing clipped highlight transitions is also pretty nice, but it doesn't have an OpenCL implementation yet, so heavy-duty use can be cpu-hungry.
I have also never been able to get the colours right in Darktable with my Panasonic G80 files.
If you feel like it, you can upload a RAW somewhere and post a rendering where you consider the colors to be "right" (preferably with only global processing, no localized adjustments, shadow lifting, etc) and I'll take a shot at matching it in darktable... just for fun. If you don't feel like it, that's cool. :D
 

junkyardsparkle

haunted scrap heap
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
2,481
Location
Brennschluss
@junkyardsparkle is a big MU-43 resident helper for Darktable support. He’ll get you on your way!
Well, no promises! I don't usually work with Panasonic files... from what I've seen of G9 RAWs, though, they err on the side of highlight protection, hence need to be pushed a little harder in post than the Olympus RAWs I'm used to... and hey, the fact that I have to keep re-learning how to use darktable over and over really helps with maintaining that "eternal newb" mindset. ;)
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
254
If you feel like it, you can upload a RAW somewhere and post a rendering where you consider the colors to be "right" (preferably with only global processing, no localized adjustments, shadow lifting, etc) and I'll take a shot at matching it in darktable... just for fun. If you don't feel like it, that's cool. :D
That would be nice. :) The only issue is that all of the problematic pictures contain people in them, for whom I do not have permission to share their pictures publicly. So I will send you a private message with those pictures, and you can play around with them.
 

junkyardsparkle

haunted scrap heap
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
2,481
Location
Brennschluss
I wanted to send you another one in a private message, but apparently you have turned off private messages on this site
Well, lets start with pictures we can share here, and see if there's any hope at all. ;)

First things first: colored lighting is a whole problem unto itself outside of the normal one of getting "good color"... LEDs especially will always tend to do weird things with respect to the available color gamut, and getting results you can live with usually involves some subjective tradeoffs (and probably enabling some gamut clipping in the "input color profile" module); in this case, that red patch near the top of the frame, in particular, is challenging. I didn't try to do anything special with here, just let it kind of blow out similarly to the OOC rendering. So, here's the OOC:

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


...and this is the RAW processed in dt with my default filmic settings adjusted to be a little more similarly saturated to the OOC:

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


Note that this isn't my idea of an ideal rendering, it's just a starting point for discussing what you do or don't like, so be as critical as you want! There are quite a few options for color models in filimic, all of which give different balances of saturation between different colors at different intensities, as well as all the other adjustments affecting overall saturation and contrast... plus the new highlight processing in v4... there's a lot to explore. So... what does a good RawTherapee rendering look like? :D

Also should drop a link to this article, which will help anyone coming to darktable now with narrowing their initial focus when confronted with the "transitional" state of things: https://pixls.us/articles/darktable-3-rgb-or-lab-which-modules-help/
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
254
...and this is the RAW processed in dt with my default filmic settings adjusted to be a little more similarly saturated to the OOC:
I like it! So what are your "default filmic settings"? What's your secret sauce? :)

When I just enable filmic in darktable 3.0.2, and increase the saturation a bit using the colour balance module (increased output saturation to 120%), I get this:

P1000658.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


The LED information panel (the 'red patch') has become quite ugly, and the highlight reconstruction on the window part is off. How do you improve that?

So... what does a good RawTherapee rendering look like? :D
This is what RawTherapee does with my own secret sauce (without changing anything):

P1000658.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


Almost identical to the SOOC JPEG, except for a slight difference in the distortion correction, and a slightly different colour on the LED panel.

this isn't my idea of an ideal rendering
What would you do differently? :)
 

junkyardsparkle

haunted scrap heap
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
2,481
Location
Brennschluss
I like it! So what are your "default filmic settings"? What's your secret sauce? :)
Well, it's mostly about just doing the RTFM for the filmic module (which is admittedly a moving target, and the current information is generally in blog and forum posts rather than the actual manual until things stabilize) and RGB linear workflow so that you can make the right adjustments to match your taste (or some other target) in a sane way... I didn't include the editing info in the JPEG because non-backwards-compatible development version, but if you (or anybody else) wants to play with a recent nightly build, I could do so. A significant thing, which probably applies to the previous filmic module as well, is that the exposure module is set to 1.37 EV exposure boost by default (lowered to 0.9 to better match OOC in this case), and -0.005 black level adjustment; for my Oly RAWs this seems to give a good starting point (depending on actual image exposure, of course) for pushing through the "processing pipe", with hopefully no pixels at zero and the midtones pretty much already where they want to be... then at the other end of the pipe filmic adjust the final black/white points and gives the fancy "S-curve" with adaptive saturation stuff to give the look you want.
The LED information panel (the 'red patch') has become quite ugly, and the highlight reconstruction on the window part is off. How do you improve that?
Probably needs a white point adjustment, at least. It's been a while since I used filmic v3, I don't remember how it defaults, but I'll see what I can do in dt 3.0.2 later, and I'll include the processing information in the JPEG for that one, so it can be loaded just like an XMP file. Much of the changes in filmic v4 are about exactly this kind of highlight transition... you can see it starting to get ugly in some of the other super-saturated red areas, too, as well as the blue blob on the right... those areas need to be considered highlights, and you tell fimic that with the white level slider. EDIT: Ok, I fired up dt 3.0.2 with this file, and the gray highlights actually seem to be related to a too-low default value for the "extreme luminance saturation" slider in the "look" tab. The artifacting is different for different "preserve chrominance" modes ("none" gives the typical magenta). These areas are also affected in possibly useful ways by applying gamut clipping and ProPhoto RGB working profile in the "input color profile" module, if you want to get really serious about recovering LED burn... but just raising "extreme luminance saturation" a little is enough to restore sanity.
Almost identical to the SOOC JPEG, except for a slight difference in the distortion correction, and a slightly different colour on the LED panel.
Nice. Yeah, for anybody wanting the easiest path to matching OOC, RawTherapee seems to be better at that, for sure. The magenta burn on the LED panel is also happening in the darktable version I posted, btw, if you look closely. Those are the kinds of odd things that can warrant a little individual attention, possibly with a quick swipe of guided masking (one of the features that makes darktable worth the initial learning curve, IMHO). The OOC image manages to avoid magenta burn, probably a little better than Oly color historically has.
What would you do differently? :)
Well, as hinted at already, my default is a little bit less saturated, with a little more exposure for more shadow detail at the expense of strongly saturated highlights... probably closer to the filmic version you posted overall, but with some obvious improvements... maybe I'll impose more of my own questionable taste on it later... but first I'll see if I can get something reasonable out of filmic v3...

Hope OP doesn't feel like this is all off-topic. ;)
 
Last edited:

junkyardsparkle

haunted scrap heap
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
2,481
Location
Brennschluss
Ok, here's what I did with dt 3.0.2 version of filmic... again, not presented as an ideal finished product, but just what can be done using only filmic and exposure modules to get a reasonable starting point. It's notably less saturated than OOC, since that version of filmic (which I consider a "growing pains" version) doesn't give a general saturation control... you would adjust this with the "color balance" module in this case. It should be possible to download this JPEG and then load it as if it were a sidecar file (in the lighttable history stack module, "load sidecar file") to apply it and do whatever you want from there.

P1000658_dt2.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
254
Thanks a lot! This confirms my suspicion that the next release will bring a lot of worthwhile improvements to the table. At some point I may switch back to Darktable, if it does the "right thing" with most of my pictures (and if it makes it relatively easy to fix it if it's not "right", as in the case of blown-out highlights). :thumbup:
 

mcasan

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
1,735
Location
Atlanta
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
While I liked the deep capability of Raw Therapee, the lack of local adjustments means it can't be my "daily driver". I have started with Darktable watched a few Youtube tutorials on it. It looks to be more than just a LrC replacement. :eek-31:
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
254
While I liked the deep capability of Raw Therapee, the lack of local adjustments means it can't be my "daily driver".
Yeah that's a pity. There is some development going on in that area, but I do not think they have plans to release it soon. You could try ART (A fork of RawTherapee): https://bitbucket.org/agriggio/art/wiki/Home.

Anyhow, I have learned to do the global adjustments in RawTherapee, then click the button to open the file in GIMP, and do my local adjustments from there. It's not ideal, but it does work.

Darktable is very nice. Check out the link that @junkyardsparkle sent, so you understand which modules to use in the "new workflow".
 

junkyardsparkle

haunted scrap heap
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
2,481
Location
Brennschluss
At some point I may switch back to Darktable, if it does the "right thing" with most of my pictures (and if it makes it relatively easy to fix it if it's not "right", as in the case of blown-out highlights)
Well, for all the recent development, there still isn't much emphasis on automagically producing something OOC-like for any given camera... the "roll-your-own" philosophy still prevails. The trick with darktable is to put in some initial effort to understand the overall workings, put together a basic "film stock" set of defaults that you like (which may or may not closely resemble OOC), and make those into auto-applied presets, so as soon as you load some RAWs, you're looking at the starting point you want. Having done this, darktable really does offer a nice workflow... especially with recent enhancements like the dynamic keyboard shortcuts. :D
I have started with Darktable watched a few Youtube tutorials on it. It looks to be more than just a LrC replacement.
One thing to keep in mind with the tutorials (youtube or otherwise) is that even the good ones are quickly becoming outdated at this point, due to the transitional situation already discussed here... darktable has been around for quite a while, so keep an eye on the vintage of any information related to it. Even the project's own user manual can't keep up with the rate of change that's been happening over the last year... :rolleyes: There's been so much development in the last few months that the traditional yearly winter solstice feature release has been fast-tracked to August; hopefully the dust will settle after that, and documentation will catch up.
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
254
there still isn't much emphasis on automagically producing something OOC-like for any given camera
I think I'm fine with that, as long as it's somewhat doable to get something decent out of it. So far, in my experiments with Darktable 3.0, I frequently got extremely desaturated highlights, weird artifacts in blown-out areas, tones that I couldn't get right, etc. I have put effort in understanding what happens, read the blog posts by Aurélien, as well as watched his long videos, but I still could not make it work. I will give it another chance with the next relaese. Until then, I am fine with my OOC-approximation in RawTherapee. ;-)
 

junkyardsparkle

haunted scrap heap
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
2,481
Location
Brennschluss
I think I'm fine with that, as long as it's somewhat doable to get something decent out of it.
Yeah, I'm sure you are, but for many people it seems to be a source of pain, so I like to point it out every chance I get. The fact that the default was (still is?) to use the embedded JPEGs for the initial thumbnails when loading files really seems to aggravate the problem... "The pictures look great until I open them in darkroom view, then they look like crap! How do I make them stay like the thumbnails?!"... and of course, you can't... that's as far as some people get. Others struggle for a while trying to use the arbitrary out-of-box defaults as a starting point for editing every single picture, sometimes using modules that don't actually address the real problem (the UI historically hasn't been helpful in that regard), and eventually get frustrated and burned out... hence I keep harping on the fact that some understanding of the nature of the beast is needed before approaching it. Even for people (myself included) who would prefer to "learn by doing" and just dive in without any RTFM... darktable just doesn't (yet) really suit that approach; it offers plenty of ways to "shoot yourself in the foot". That said, some modules do feature very helpful tooltips when hovering over controls, in some cases information that may not yet be in the "real" documentation, so watch for that while exploring. :D
So far, in my experiments with Darktable 3.0, I frequently got extremely desaturated highlights, weird artifacts in blown-out areas, tones that I couldn't get right, etc.
Pay particular attention to the chroma preservation mode being used in filmic or other curves modules; I think the defaults chosen for filmic v3 were somewhat questionable (as shown with those ugly gray patches). I can understand that the fancy algorithms can do nicer things, and you want to present that to users, but the luminance mode is probably closer to what people expect based on OOC, and it doesn't freak out over blown out highlights. I used it for my default when I was using filmic v3 (the version in last release). The good news is that filmic v4 has fixed some things, and I now use "RGB power norm" as default (and only rarely change it, for "unusual" color situations).

I would say if there are nightly development builds available for one's OS/distro, this would be a good time to check one out, do some beta testing... most of the commits being checked in lately are minor GUI tweaks and translation work, things seem pretty stable.
 

Latest posts

Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Mu-43 is a fan site and not associated with Olympus, Panasonic, or other manufacturers mentioned on this site.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Copyright © 2009-2019 Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom