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Fitting a FF Sensor-crazy idea?

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by nayneshdev, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. nayneshdev

    nayneshdev Mu-43 Rookie

    18
    Feb 24, 2015
    Vadodara
    Dr. Naynesh Devlani
    Hey all,

    Well with whatever i have come to know from the internet, a FF sensor produces a better dynamic range and a better high iso detail to noise against a m4/3 or aps-c for that matter. I was just having an idea that why not just fit a FF sensor instead of 4/3 but retain the same set of lenses and instead just crop out the image circle that is not lit. That way one could get the benefits of both systems(not asking for shallower dof). This would be like using an oly lens on a sony mirrorless FF. If we have a 38MP FF sensor then we could extract a reasonable 16-19MP image circle i guess. The newly developed high-res mode in EM5-II could also benefit. Besides an obvious bump in FF sensor cost what other implications could be there. Is this idea even practical?

    Appologies if this is posted in wrong section or something similar has already been asked.

    I do not want to raise a discussion/debate of FF vs m4/3. Kindly post only about the practical aspects of the question.
     
  2. pake

    pake Mu-43 All-Pro

    Oct 14, 2010
    Finland
    Teemu
    I guess if it was practical someone had already done it...
     
  3. kevinparis

    kevinparis Cantankerous Scotsman

    Feb 12, 2010
    Gent, Belgium
    The reason some ff sensors offer higher DR and better hi ISO is because the pixel density is lower and ergo the size of the individual light catching pixels are larger

    Assuming the rough approximation that the 4/3 sensor is a quarter of the size of a FF sensor, we already have pixel densities equivalent to a 60+ megapixel FF sensor

    Put a 38 megapixel FF sensor behind a 4/3 lens and you would only use 1/4 of the pixels, 38/4=9.5 megapixel final image. That would be a hard sell for Olympus or any other manufacturer, for minima practical gain

    thats how I see it anyway...maybe I am missing something

    K
     
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  4. Jonathan F/2

    Jonathan F/2 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 10, 2011
    Los Angeles, CA
    I think that's what the Sony E/FE mount already does, but with the 1.5 APS-C crop when mounting E mount lenses on an A7 series body. I like the idea, but I don't think it'd be practical for Olympus or Panasonic to build an FF camera without having to build an entirely new set of lenses. FF is great in it's own right, but there is also practical merit to the smaller sensor format, especially when wanting to keep compact and lightweight.

    Personally for me, I'd love to see some Olympus image processing with a large sensor camera. I'd be even happy with a fixed lens solution with different crop factors and Olympus tech (high res mode, live composite mode, art filters, etc.) included!
     
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  5. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    Oh boy -- this was discussed in DPReview already with a lot of fist fighting about the equivalency theory. Do you really want to go there?

    The answer to your question is that, is has already happened but the progress is actually reversed. The advancement of smaller sized sensors for cell phones help the progress for larger sensors. Smaller sized sensors for cell phones are already about 2 to 3 generations AHEAD of the best full frame sensors. They have to keep up with image quality especially in regards to DR and noise levels. The key to more DR and lower noise is the sensor's ability to collect more light. Right now, the denser pixels design of today are still limiting maximum collection of photons that could be done at the marketable sensor resolution. The development of the organic sensor will help increase DR and lower noise by up to 2 stops or better than current generation with the ability to increase sensor resolution without resulting to sensor shift hi-res mode. Like Paris said, the current 16MP sensor we have is basically the equiv of a 60MP full frame sensor.

    This progress will happen. Cell phone users want better and better quality image from their phones and there's where the development money is going towards.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015
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  6. nayneshdev

    nayneshdev Mu-43 Rookie

    18
    Feb 24, 2015
    Vadodara
    Dr. Naynesh Devlani
    Oh i totally overlooked the fact that a crop factor in both the dimensions equals to a crop of 4 in terms of area.

    Hmm, this looks promising.
     
  7. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    Hopefully we'll get a sensor uplift with the E-M1 ii - maybe a BSI design, or maybe something exotic like the stacked, global electronic shutter thing that Oly are working on.. I just hope it's not the same old 16Mp design or even that 18mp Panasonic thing in the GX 8 since it doesn't seem to offer any real improvement over what we have now.
     
  8. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    Since Olympus didn't introduce the E-M1 II after the GX8 and the rumour mills had been kept quite so far meant that Olympus does indeed have something that is a game changer. I guess they have too because the E-M1 II will be the basis for all the future OMD models to come with Sony going pretty strong with the A7 series.

    Having said that; to gain some significant DR and noise performance, we need to go to an Organic CMOS imaging sensor. Current sensor technologies have already maxed out, but rest assured that development is madly ongoing. The first benefits will be towards cell phone users as this market usually guarantees a reasonable ROI (Return On Investment) as opposed to a camera system. And then once perfected, the technology will be scaled up to 1", 4/3 and then full frame depending if there is a market or not.

    My take on the E-M1 II will probably be a 20MP Sony Bayer CMOS sensor. Hopefully a BSI version which should give a cleaner ISO 6400 output. To get cleaner and better DR closer to full frame, the E-M1 II will need to rely on the newer sensor shifting technology that can capture up to 1/60sec. The multi-imaging sampling helps extend DR and lowers noise (almost 2 stops) so I think will be part of the game changer. The icing on the cake would be much faster C-AF like found on the GH4, digital polarizer (getting rid of the circular polarizer completely and gain 1 to 2 stop light because of no glass in front) and a global shutter would also be nice. They probably could do a limited global shutter since the scan rate for hi-res handheld would be fast enough for 20MP G.S. If this actually is the specs of the E-M1 II, it would help carry forward Olympus for another 3 years before Organic CMOS imaging sensors would become economically viable for marketing.
     
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