First shots with Baby Brownie Special, first overall failure developing

Brownie

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I could post more, but they all look exactly the same. I would appreciate it if someone can tell me what I did. I know it wasn't the camera because the marks go right outside the frame. Are these air bubbles? I agitated with the twiddler as suggested by the guy in the videos @felipegeek recommnded.

50867659076_4b880dc91a_b.jpgP1061713_01 by telecast, on Flickr

50867658861_55f60e3336_b.jpgP1061714_01 by telecast, on Flickr

Ok, now then.

I fumbled with that film in the bag for over a half an hour trying to get it on the reel. I was so frustrated I almost gave up, but knew I couldn't take my arms out of the bag for fear of light. Every time I got it started, it would pop out. I could feel the film was buckling and wouldn't stay straight. I just kept trying (and cussing) until it finally fed on the spool. Afterwards I decided to practice with the developed roll since it's wasted anyway and...damn...the film is wider than the reel, and not by a little, it overlaps the edge of the reel by 1/2 the thickness of the plastic. This causes the film to buckle as it's being fed and pop out.

The question: Is it normal for 127 (or any film for that matter) to be wider than the developing reel, or is this just really poor quality control on the part of the film supplier? As I understand it new 127 is not being manufactured, the suppliers are cutting down 120 and respooling it. Is it possible that the film was touching the layers on each side from being buckled in the reel and contributed to this mess? Someone in the other developing thread suggested a SS tank. Would a stainless tank and reel allow for more play?

@Quadna71

Regarding the camera, no problems. I did some research and learned that the old Kodaks with a single shutter speed and f Stop were either 1/40th, 1/45th, or 1/50th of a second and f/15. Armed with that I used a light meter to back into the shots. I set the meter for 100 ISO, 1/45, and f/15 and found that I needed about 100 lumens for proper exposure. Then, I walked around and tried to frame shots that were 'about' 100 lumens, but it was a pretty loose 'about'. The only reason I went to this extent was to try and determine if the shutter springs are weakened to the extent that the camera is way out of whack. Now that I know they're within an acceptable tolerance I doubt I'd ever check again. Film has a lot of latitude to play with and you need to remember these were made for kids and people with zero experience to be successful. Based on my experience, I say get yourself some 100 film, use standard old camera common sense rules like keeping the sun behind you, not shooting in super bright or dark light, and I think you'll be fine. Load and unload in subdued light. Oh yeah, and don't develop at home!
 

Brownie

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Maybe oils from your hands? From the shutter?
First diagnosis from an analog photography forum is that it's reticulation. Evidently the film got too warm and humid in the changing bag and reacted with the backing paper.

Here's how the film fit the reel. I think it all boils down to QA-QC on the film itself.

127 Top by telecast, on Flickr

127 side by telecast, on Flickr

In this one you can see how much the film overlaps the edge of the reel.

127 lap by telecast, on Flickr
 

agentlossing

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I'm just keeping quiet since I have no idea what went wrong here. If I can recommend one process thing, it's blacking out a room to load the reel, if at all possible. I hate changing bags with a passion.
 

Brownie

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127 film is supposed to be 46mm wide.

Are you still using the all in one dev and fix?
Yep.

Anyway - it would be boring if it was easy.
And I just reasoned with myself that I can retake all of those shots, and may just tomorrow. I have some 120 in a Brownie Hawkeye I need to shoot up.

I'm just keeping quiet since I have no idea what went wrong here. If I can recommend one process thing, it's blacking out a room to load the reel, if at all possible. I hate changing bags with a passion.
I wish there was a space. I was thinking about one of those full size walk in darkroom tents, but since I'm usually doing one reel at a time, not worth it.

Can anyone comment on the film fit in the reel? I am too new at this to know if that's normal. If the film width is wrong, I am going to the seller. $13/roll + shipping is too much to waste.
 

John King

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Tim, while the film appears too wide, it should feed into a slot under the feeder that is the right width?

Your development spool is quite different from any that I have used (way back ... ).

Practice loading with your now buggered film, so that you can do it blindfolded ... ;).

Heat or moisture (sweat) could have caused that emulsion bubbling. More likely that your developer was too warm. What was the ambient temperature and fluid temperature? In my youth, you needed to adjust development times if above or below 68°F.
 

Brownie

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Tim, while the film appears too wide, it should feed into a slot under the feeder that is the right width?

Your development spool is quite different from any that I have used (way back ... ).

Practice loading with your now buggered film, so that you can do it blindfolded ... ;).

Heat or moisture (sweat) could have caused that emulsion bubbling. More likely that your developer was too warm. What was the ambient temperature and fluid temperature? In my youth, you needed to adjust development times if above or below 68°F.
Nope, all of that was regulated. Everything was exactly 76 degrees. I use a Sous vide machine. The developing tank was setting in a bath of the same temp. Last time I developed everything was 1 degree warmer.

There's no point in practicing with improperly cut film. Look at the photos I posted, the film is in the slot in the first two shots. I took the last shot overlaying the reel on one side to illustrate how much wider it is.

The film is Rerapan 100. I'm finding others have experienced similar.
 

oldracer

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I have souped a lot of film, but I don't recognize the particular "bubbles" syndrome. Was there foam when you poured out the tank? If so, maybe some soap or detergent contamination? Maybe reticulation? You may be able to feel that as variations in the film thickness. "Twiddler?" I have no idea what that is. Gentle agitation by tilting the tank back and forth is all you need, not a tsunami. I never had much luck with the trick-type plastic reels. Once you get the hang of it, the stainless wire reels work like a dream. Practice with exposed film.

Film should not fit the way it looks in your photos. It should be a tiny bit narrower (guess 1mm?) than the reel or it will be a bitc# to load the reel.

Most important point: If you don't make mistakes from time to time you are not trying hard enough. Congratulations on your project! Keep up the good work.
 

Brownie

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I have souped a lot of film, but I don't recognize the particular "bubbles" syndrome. Was there foam when you poured out the tank? If so, maybe some soap or detergent contamination? Maybe reticulation? You may be able to feel that as variations in the film thickness. "Twiddler?" I have no idea what that is. Gentle agitation by tilting the tank back and forth is all you need, not a tsunami. I never had much luck with the trick-type plastic reels. Once you get the hang of it, the stainless wire reels work like a dream. Practice with exposed film.

Film should not fit the way it looks in your photos. It should be a tiny bit narrower (guess 1mm?) than the reel or it will be a bitc# to load the reel.

Most important point: If you don't make mistakes from time to time you are not trying hard enough. Congratulations on your project! Keep up the good work.
Thanks, not with the DF96 Monobath. It's recommended to use the agitator instead of inverting. You can thank @RichardC for the term Twiddler! We covered that in great detail in another thread.

I thought maybe the wetting agent, but I wet my fingers and squeegeed the film after I hung it to dry. Once I saw it I tried re-rinsing, no luck.

I'd love to try some SS reels. I'll bet you a nickel you can't find any for 127 for something less than a second mortgage!
 

RichardC

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Edit: cross posted:

It's hard to get the widths wrong on Paterson auto load reels. There are only three settings, 35mm, 127 and 120. I've never had a problem with them - but they do have to be bone dry before you try to load them. That film just looks like it's been cut too wide.

Do some practice runs in daylight.

If you struggle with changing bags you could always try Ortho film - it has much reduced red sensitivity - you might get away with a safelight :biggrin:
 

oldracer

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Thanks, not with the DF96 Monobath. It's recommended to use the agitator instead of inverting. ...
I would call the company and ask for advice, describing your problem.

Re agitation aka twiddling, all you are trying to do is to keep fresh developer in contact with the film, working against the problem of that developer becoming not-fresh when it is in contact. So any kind of gentle agitation, not producing bubbles, should be fine.* I would ask the company to explain why they don't like inversion, just so you know.

*I just looked at the DF9 web page and they recommend more agitation at higher developer temps. This is because the chemical reactions are going faster and the developer in contact with the film is becoming not-fresh faster. The agitation recommendations (https://cinestillfilm.com/products/...h-single-step-solution-for-processing-at-home) look pretty conventional to me.
 

Brownie

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I would call the company and ask for advice, describing your problem.

Re agitation aka twiddling, all you are trying to do is to keep fresh developer in contact with the film, working against the problem of that developer becoming not-fresh when it is in contact. So any kind of gentle agitation, not producing bubbles, should be fine.* I would ask the company to explain why they don't like inversion, just so you know.

*I just looked at the DF9 web page and they recommend more agitation at higher developer temps. This is because the chemical reactions are going faster and the developer in contact with the film is becoming not-fresh faster. The agitation recommendations (https://cinestillfilm.com/products/...h-single-step-solution-for-processing-at-home) look pretty conventional to me.
I followed the directions to a T. I agitated per their recommendation for the temp processed. We discussed all of this and @felipegeek posted a link to a great set of tutorials on the DF96 in this thread. If you read the thread you'll see how I got from Point A to Point B.

The very first image from the very first roll of film I ever developed, which was...today. | Mu-43 (mu-43.com)
 

agentlossing

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Yeah, I've done my fair share of developing with DF96 and this doesn't look like a development issue to me, not one I've come across anyway. DF96 responds predictably to temp or agitation issues.
 

retiredfromlife

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Cant comment on what looks like a chemical reaction of some sort, but I can possibly give some hints on the spirals.

For wider that normal 35mm film I found the stainless steel spirals gave me the least trouble. I found the Patterson ratchet spirals were very problematic if the bag got humid, or had residue chemicals on them. Forgotten which but when I used those patterson spirals I also used some sort of tank wash to remove any chemicals.

Regardless of the the film spiral you end up using I think you need to waste a roll of film for every size you want to develop. First up load it up out of the bag watching how and when the film can buckle and twist when loading as this can lead to those half moon creases especially on the larger sizes. Then you progress to loading with you eyes closed and checking when it feels wrong. You will get it down pat in one night. But if you plastic spirals in a humid bag you will have problems. When I lived in PNG the loading bags were always humid but had no problem with the stainless steel spirals.

With the stainless steel spirals you can gently push the film back and forth as the load it to determine if it is in the spirals correctly. Sounds harder than it is.
when loading film in those bags I got the largest size I could. From memory there were two back in the day.
In the bag I used to cut the end off and push it into a corner, for use gauging how long to leave in the fixer, double the clearing time.
Than I would cut the corners off, just a little bit to make it easier to feel the film in for both plastic and stainless steel spools.
One has to be carefull to put those film corners into the corner of the bag so they do not stick to the film roll.
You will end up with your own workflow with the tools in the bag and film offcuts and disgarded film canister bits.

For agitation I only used the invert tank once every 30 seconds, if you spin or twiddle the spiral too quickly all sorts of problems can occure in my experience.
Which is another good thing with the stainless steel spirals, you can only use the invert method.

Dont know if you can still get them but three books by kodak are really good.
Preservation of Photographs, library of congress 79-54197, ISBN, 0-87985-212-7
Conservation of Photographs, library of congress 84-80244, ISBN 0-87985-352-2
Care and identification of 19th century photographic prints. library of congress card 85-081727, ISBN 0-87985-365-4

Anyway hope you get it sorted, film was my love of photography and well worth the effort to get right.
 
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Nope, all of that was regulated. Everything was exactly 76 degrees. I use a Sous vide machine. The developing tank was setting in a bath of the same temp. Last time I developed everything was 1 degree warmer.

There's no point in practicing with improperly cut film. Look at the photos I posted, the film is in the slot in the first two shots. I took the last shot overlaying the reel on one side to illustrate how much wider it is.

The film is Rerapan 100. I'm finding others have experienced similar.
Can you cut the bad film to the correct width for practicing?
 
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