+/- Exp Comp

Discussion in 'Olympus Cameras' started by rbsandor, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. rbsandor

    rbsandor Mu-43 Regular

    32
    Jan 3, 2013
    Denver CO
    The new Pen F has an exposure compensation dial. Will this allow exp. comp. to be dialed in when using the Pen in full Manual and Auto ISO? On my E-M1, I can dial in exp. comp. when in either P, A, or S and Auto ISO , but not so when in Manual and Auto ISO. Thanks, Richard
     
  2. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    Looks like the answer is yes

    From the PEN-F manual (pg.29):
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. David A

    David A Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 30, 2011
    Brisbane, Australia
    On my E-M1, Auto ISO simply isn't available in Manual mode. That makes sense because Manual mode is supposed to be manual, you choose the exposure settings and the camera makes no exposure choices. ISO is an exposure choice so the camera should not change it on it's own when you are in Manual mode.

    I would be surprised if Auto ISO is available in Manual mode on the Pen F. Auto ISO is an automatic exposure control option, as are P, A, and S modes. Manual mode disables automatic exposure control. If you stop and think about it, let's say you set your aperture and shutter speed in Manual mode and the bar display in the viewfinder shows that you are giving 2 stops underexposure to the meter reading, and you want those 2 stops underexposure to stop some important highlights from clipping. Do you really want to be able to have the camera in Auto ISO mode and have it adjust the ISO automatically in order to eliminate what it sees as an underexposure? You simply can't have full manual control of exposure if the camera is going to be able to override your intention by applying it's own choice of ISO and thereby altering the amount of under or overexposure you've chosen to give with your choice of aperture and shutter speed settings.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    From Pen-F manual:
    M mode ec.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Appreciate Appreciate x 1
  5. Phocal

    Phocal Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 3, 2014
    Actually auto ISO is useable in manual mode on the EM1, I use it all the time. What you can't do is have exposure comp while in manual mode (the top of the line Canon and Nikons do have this ability, the Sony A7's may but I am not sure). People really need to get off this manual mode mentality.....it is so film era. It would help if camera companies changed the M to something else. Basically what people are asking for is what I guess would be called ISO priority, you pick shutter and aperture and let camera pick lowest ISO. An ISO priority mode would not be much different then Shutter or Aperture priority, you pick one that you set and the camera picks the other two.

    @heli-mech@heli-mech posted while I was typing and looks like you can, which is awesome.

    For those against this style of photography it is actually pretty damn useful, for example. I was laying on the ground during a pretty heavy rain and photographing a Little Blue Heron. It was pretty nasty outside with little sun but the brightness would change depending on the cloud cover over the sun at any given time. I was shooting my ZD 150mm ƒ2.0 with the EC-14 and because of the dim conditions decided to shot wide-open at ƒ2.8. When a bird strikes at a fish you need 1/1000 or faster to freeze the head, you can get away with 1/800 but will have a little bit of motion blur. So, to keep ISO as low as possible I went into manual and set 1/800 @ ƒ2.8 with auto ISO. The constant changing in brightness made it easier to just concentrate on following this heron around (he was walking all around me catching little fish, worms, and grubs and often coming within a few feet of me). Everything was working great until a Snowy Egret showed up and I wanted to photograph him, I typically underexpose white birds by 2/3 to 2 full stops depending on the sun. I was trying to switch between the two depending on which one was catching something in a constant changing lighting situation. If I could have used exposure bias in manual it would have been a really simple thing. I ended up switching to shutter priority (thankfully the EM1 will pick wide-open aperture before moving ISO above 200).

    There really is no reason to not have technology work for us and not against us. I already knew that needed 1/800 shutter speed and ƒ2.8, the only variable that was changing was the ISO. If I set the parameters that are critical, why not let the camera choose the one parameter that is changing? I already had my max ISO of 1600 picked, so I was in control of my final image quality as well as the other technical aspect of the shot. Now, a white bird shows up that is going to require underexposure......makes no sense to have to switch modes to photograph this bird when just adding the ability is a simple software fix (other cameras are capable of this). Before you say, use spot metering....I would love to if the spot was where my focus point is but the EM1 only uses the center of the viewfinder. Nikon just introduced spot metering that meters based on focus point selection, I really hope Olympus does that soon also.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Informative Informative x 2
  6. rbsandor

    rbsandor Mu-43 Regular

    32
    Jan 3, 2013
    Denver CO
    David: Here's how I use Manual and Auto ISO with exp comp on my Nikons. I set the aperture and SS as needed. The camera then chooses the ISO it thinks is needed for a good exposure as ISO is the only remaining variable. If I want to modify that I modify the ISO via the exp comp button. So, for example, on a sunny day, if there are some bright whites, I dial in some negative exp comp to keep from blowing the whites. .

    The reason I like Manual and Auto ISO is that I shoot a lot of sports and wildlife. I set Ap and SS as needed. When the animal/athlete is dark, the camera boosts the ISO. When the animal/athlete is brighter, the camera lowers the ISO. Either situation can be over ridden by the exp button which now changes the ISO per my instruction. Works extremely well. I think what you're describing is having a fixed ISO.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. kevinparis

    kevinparis Cantankerous Scotsman

    Feb 12, 2010
    Gent, Belgium
    For the short reply

    1) Auto ISO does work in Manual mode on the E-M1... not sure why it doesn't work for David A

    2) In manual.. the only thing you could adjust is ISO...Its Manual... you already have control of shutter and aperture. Not sure if you can configure a way of adjusting ISO via a dial or indeed if the new PEN F assigns ISO to the exp comp dial.. Hope it would

    K
     
  8. David A

    David A Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 30, 2011
    Brisbane, Australia

    OK, thanks for the info on the Auto ISO setting option in the menu. I had Auto ISO set to P/A/S only so I set it to All and it does work in Manual mode but that effectively means I can no longer choose to under or over expose by a certain amount in order to preserve highlight or shadow detail. The camera is going to double guess me and change one of my exposure settings if it thinks I got it wrong and my reason for choosing manual is because I think my choices are right and I don't want the camera to have a say in the matter. That is the technology working against me, not for me.

    I've got nothing against Auto ISO and I do use it at times in P/A/S modes but when I want to have control over my exposure settings and choose settings which deliver a certain amount of under or over exposure, I want that amount of under or over exposure to "stick", no matter what mode I'm in. I don't want the camera having the option to change one of the exposure settings on me and alter my chosen amount of under or over exposure in the process. I don't mind it if the camera changes one or two of the settings when I am using the exposure recommended by the meter but once I choose to change from the meter's recommendation I want my choices to be what I get and I don't want the ISO setting changing on me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Phocal

    Phocal Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 3, 2014
    You turned on auto ISO so you can select it in manual mode. That does not mean you can't manually set the ISO and then set your exposure to what you want (over, under, dead on). I fail to see how turning it on has effected the way you use manual mode other then now being able to use auto ISO if you want. You can still manually set aperture, shutter, ISO and the camera will not change anything.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. Klorenzo

    Klorenzo Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 10, 2014
    Lorenzo
    Agreed, this is exactly why you need exp comp in Manual mode when using it with Auto-ISO, just like with PAS modes. In this situation the camera acts as a "Aperture AND shutter priority" mode, moving the ISO only. And you still need to correct the exposure meter when it's wrong (with other cameras you can not do it and it's a problem). There are situations where this double priority plus Auto-ISO comes handy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  11. heli-mech

    heli-mech Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Mar 9, 2012
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Andrew
    Its funny, Pentax has had this as a shooting mode for the longest time (Tav- manual Aperture and Shutter, auto ISO with EC available) I really didn't use it much but it was handy when I did. When I switched to Olympus years ago I was surprised they didn't, more surprised its taking Olympus this long to add what amounts to a firmware feature.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. David A

    David A Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 30, 2011
    Brisbane, Australia
    OK guys. listen up here :)

    I'm 68 and I've watched any number of words in the English language have their meaning changed over the course of my lifetime but when I started learning how to speak, "manual" was an all or nothing term, it meant you did it all yourself. There were flavours of "automatic" ranging from fully automatic when everything was done/set for you to partially or semi-automatic where some things were done for you and you did the other things yourself. The idea of something being "manual" with some aspect of it being controlled automatically meant you weren't using the term "manual" correctly because that was not something that was encompassed in the meaning of the word.

    Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with you being able to set aperture, shutter speed, degree of under or over exposure, and letting the camera set the ISO for you to make those other settings work. That's even a useful option to have but calling it "Manual mode" when the camera sets ISO automatically? Give me a break! If the camera is setting ISO and you're setting the other things, you're no longer operating the camera in Manual mode, you're in a semi-automatic mode. Let's call it what it is. Auto anything should not be possible in Manual mode but you should be able to control just what is set automatically and what is set manually when you're shooting in other words.

    Now, to make that perfectly clear, this point is not about photography. It's about the ongoing debasement of the English language and drawing a line in the sand. We had "manual", "automatic", and "semi-automatic" and those terms managed to accurately describe the full range of control options so why do we have to come up with something that's called "Manual" but lets you have one of the settings controlled automatically? You can control aperture, ISO, and the amount of exposure compensation manually in A mode and let the camera set shutter speed, and you would never think of calling that "Manual" so why would you ever call a mode in which you set aperture, shutter speed, and the amount of exposure compensation manually but let the camera set ISO a "Manual" mode? Give me a break.

    What you guys are talking about is not Manual mode, you're talking about a different automatic mode to P, A, and S but one which camera manufacturers are too lazy to name and to provide a specific option for on their mode dials. If you want a name for this sort of option, call it AS mode where you set aperture and shutter speed and have an exposure compensation option but the camera gets automatically set to Auto ISO and sets the ISO for you.

    Now before anyone gets all hot and bothered under the collar, note the smiley up in the first sentence. I am not making any personal attacks, I'm not saying that the control option that you're all extolling isn't useful because it is and I don't want to see that option removed. What I am saying is that the operating mode you are talking about is not manual and shouldn't be called that, it should not be something that you can do in Manual mode. The functionality is fine, it's the naming of the option that's wrong. Let's say what we mean and mean what we say.

    I almost think it's time for me to start a crusade and gather a "coalition of the willing" to take on the revisionists who want to debase the fundamental purity of the holy word "manual" by letting it include a semi-automatic option while not acknowledging that by doing that they have given up on "Manual mode" and are doing something else :)

    And yes, there's a smiley after that call for a crusade also.

    So now to be perfectly serious.

    If I'm in Manual mode on my E-M1 and I have my front dial set to shutter speed, my rear dial set to aperture, and I can see in the viewfinder how much under or over exposed I am and I want to get a given amount of under or over exposure, why would I set my ISO to Auto ISO and assign a button to Exposure compensation so I dial in the right amount of under or over exposure and let the camera determine the required ISO setting when I can set my lever on the back to Mode 1 and just flip it to position 2 and adjust ISO myself using the front dial until I get the amount of under or over exposure I need? Is calling up exposure compensation and adjusting it to where I want so the camera can adjust ISO when it is in Auto ISO really any faster or more efficient or preferable in any way to flipping my lever to position 2 and adjusting the ISO setting using my front dial until I get the amount of under or over exposure I want? The resulting settings for aperture, shutter speed, and ISO are going to be exactly the same whichever way I go about it.

    So, is there really any need for Auto ISO in Manual mode when exactly the same result can be achieved in Manual mode simply by selecting ISO for manual adjustment rather than calling up the exposure compensation setting and adjusting that with ISO set to Auto?

    You don't need access to Auto ISO in Manual mode to use your camera in the way we're talking about using it.
     
  13. Phocal

    Phocal Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 3, 2014
    First - until they add another letter to the dial everyone will call it Manual mode because that is what the camera manual calls it. I seriously doubt that a standard name will be given to it that will be adopted by all camera manufacturers. It is also the only current camera mode that allows you to set shutter and aperture.

    Second - as primarily an action photographer it's all about speed. I determine my shutter speed and aperture and let the camera pick the lowest ISO. I look at ISO as a quality setting - 200 is highest quality and for me 1600 is the lowest quality I'm willing to accept and I can preselect this quality range ahead of time.

    Third - there are lots of uses for this type of mode where being able to dial in exposure composition with manually selected shutter/aperture and camera determines ISO. Several post above illustrated examples of its usefulness. Yes it can all be done manually and for years it has been. I learned a long ago that just because it's always been done a certain way does not make it the right way or the most efficient way.

    Maybe you should step outside the box and take a look at around.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. David A

    David A Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 30, 2011
    Brisbane, Australia
    My point was that I can move the lever and then rotate a dial to adjust ISO to whatever I like. The alternative method using auto ISO requires you to press a button to make exposure compensation available on one of your dials and then move the dial until you dial in the amount of exposure compensation you want. I don't see a difference in the ease or speed of one approach over the other. Neither seems to have an advantage in efficiency and the odds are that when you press the button to make exposure compensation adjustable if you do things your way, you're probably going to have one of the two dials assigned to exposure compensation to let you make the adjustment and so you're doing the same thing as I do if I need to only I don't need to use Auto ISO in order to do it. It's no slower to rotate a dial to change ISO manually than it is to rotate a dial to change the amount of exposure compensation.

    As for action, if you've got a moving subject and the subject moves into a different lighting situation you're going to need to change the exposure whether you do it your way by adjusting an exposure compensation setting or my way by changing the ISO setting which is what your exposure compensation adjustment alters because your amount of exposure compensation depends on the how the subject is lit relative to the surroundings and my chosen amount of under or over exposure depends on the same thing. There's no problem if you can do it in advance and if you have to do it on the fly while the subject is moving you're still going to have to do exactly the same thing with the dial in the same amount of time.

    As I said, I don't see any advantages to your approach over mine, or for that matter for mine over yours, when it comes down to what you need to do with the camera controls and how you do it. The procedure in both cases is essentially identical.

    When it comes to stepping outside the box and looking around, don't forget the smilies I went to great effort to draw your attention to. Everything between those 2 smilies was clearly intended as humour but you appear to be ignoring that fact.

    Let's face it, a manual mode which lets you supposedly control something automatically is an oxymoron. In reality you don't have exposure compensation control your way. You adjust something you're calling "exposure compensation" but every stop or fraction of a stop change you make simply changes the ISO setting by that amount. Is there any reason why you shouldn't just change the ISO setting by that amount when you can do so using the same physical process? You really don't gain anything at all be being able to engage Auto ISO in Manual mode, in fact you actually waste the time it takes to set the ISO setting to Auto because there's no need to do so when you can access the ISO adjustment the same way you change what you call "exposure compensation" when doing it your way and all you end up doing in fact is changing the ISO setting.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. eteless

    eteless Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jun 20, 2014
    Manual is needed for flash photography, the camera doesn't know that studio strobes are going to fire and will pick a completely wrong choice otherwise.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Klorenzo

    Klorenzo Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 10, 2014
    Lorenzo
    About the term Manual you should complain with Olympus, and other companies, about that. Maybe we should use the term "fixed" or "non-automatic" or "user controlled" exposure for manual with fixed ISO. Manual with Auto-ISO is not longer "completely fixed", is semi-automatic.
    I understand that this specific usage of the term can, sometimes, create confusion, but it is quite easy to clarify it.

    About the advantages: suppose you are shooting snow sports (or in a forest with green trees and brown terrain). So you know the metering will be off every time. So you set shutter speed to 1/1000s, aperture to f4 to have some DoF (even if your camera can do 2.8) and +1 exp comp.
    Now you no longer need to touch anything while you follow your target around while he moves. And Auto-ISO can correct minor exposure changes. So the procedure is completely different.

    And if you see that ISO is going too high or that your subject stopped moving you can immediately drop down the shutter speed to gain some ISO.

    This is a lot faster than examine the scene for each shot, guess the compensation, and dial it in through ISO. I'm talking about subjects fast moving down a slope skiing or on a mountain bike. Or, I suppose, could be used if you are shooting a white dressed subject moving around with center-weighted or spot metering. Sadly AEL in Manual mode + Auto ISO does not work but would be nice to quickly switch to "full Manual".

    Second, not all cameras allow to set the ISO with the dials, on the E-M10 I have first to press Multi-Function, a couple of big menus appear, then with the front dial set the ISO, press Ok or half-press the shutter to confirm, get back to shooting.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. Phocal

    Phocal Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 3, 2014
    I did not say manual was not needed or there was never a need for it. What I meant is that the M = Manual mode is not a valid way to look at that dial position, that is until the camera companies add another spot on the dial. Even on cameras that allow you to set the aperture/shutter have auto ISO and dial in exposure compensation you still have to set the camera into M mode or manual mode as the camera manual tells you that is what M mode is. And still.....there is nothing that keeps you from making it a fully manual mode.
     
  18. Phocal

    Phocal Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 3, 2014
    It is 5am and I am heading out the door to actually go take photos (something I think many on this forum never do) so this will be short. @Klorenzo@Klorenzo summed it up perfect so there is no reason to try and explain it any more. See my response above about M mode, which from now on I will refer to it as M mode and not manual mode because it really is no longer just a manual only mode.

    But, you last comment about "exposure compensation" and that is not what it is because I am changing ISO is the same for when in Aperture or Shutter priority because in those modes you are really changing shutter or aperture when you adjust exposure compensation. From Wiki the definition of exposure compensation "Exposure compensation is a technique for adjusting the exposure indicated by a photographic exposure meter, in consideration of factors that may cause the indicated exposure to result in a less-than-optimal image" There are only three ways to change exposure and that is by changing shutter speed, aperture, or ISO and now that ISO is not hard wired (by that I mean I no longer have to load film and can adjust ISO from shot to shot) there is no valid reason not to use it to adjust exposure. Remember, all these terms were developed in the days of film when changing ISO was not a simple task. Now, I look at ISO as a quality setting for my image and basically it is.

    Ronnie
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Klorenzo

    Klorenzo Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 10, 2014
    Lorenzo
    @David A@David A There is another big difference in my mind at least: if I want to make a picture darker the first thing that comes to my mind is exposure compensation, probably because I'm used to priority modes. ISO in my mind is about noise and amount of available light, it is not associated with metering problems.
    Of course it influences the exposure but is much more indirect.

    If I use the ISO to correct exposure and later I drop the speed to 1/500s or aperture to f/2.8 for reasons not related to exposure I have to correct the ISO too. With Auto-ISO this does not happen: if I want to blur the background I just change the aperture (assuming enough "ISO space" is available).

    I think you should try to use it for a while to see all these small differences.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. David A

    David A Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 30, 2011
    Brisbane, Australia
    Re your first post above: yes, I accept the advantage where the lighting does not change and you don't need to adjust the exposure, or if the lighting changes by a small amount and the relationship in lighting between subject and surroundings does not change. The original query however was about exposure compensation and being able to dial it in and my point about the process stands. Your process and my process are essentially identical when making the change. If you don't need to make a change to the amount of exposure compensation you've set when using your process, then I'm not going to need to make a change to anything with my process unless the overall light level changes considerably, probably by around a stop or so. If that happens you may well be reviewing your settings as well.

    Whether you work your way or my way, you need to keep an eye on what is happening with the exposure. The difference is largely in what you keep an eye on and when you need to make adjustments but either way, when you need to make an adjustment I see no advantage in the ease or speed of the adjustment process from either method. Your approach may work better for you than mine in the sort of things you shoot and mine may work better for me in the sort of things that I shoot but either way part of the advantage we each see in our preferred ways of working may come down to nothing more than familiarity with our own particular approach.