EVF lag - and how to overcome it...

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by Brian Mosley, Jul 23, 2010.

  1. Brian Mosley

    Brian Mosley Administrator Emeritus Charter Member

    Dec 15, 2009
    Hello everyone,

    for those of us shooting with an EVF and wishing to capture that 'decisive moment' - try this experiment...

    Bring up this page and start the stopwatch... now, look at the stopwatch through your EVF with your right eye, while keeping your left eye open and looking at the scene.

    Observe the delay between the real clock counter and the image in the EVF... that fraction of a second can mean the difference between capturing - or missing the decisive moment.

    From now on, my tip would be to learn to keep both eyes open when shooting action - and use the 'real world eye' for timing the exposure release, while framing and focusing through your 'EVF eye' ::biggrin:

    With practice, I'm guessing you'll be able to track action better by keeping both eyes on the target - one eye on 'reality' and one through the EVF. :2thumbs:

    Cheers

    Brian
     
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  2. f6cvalkyrie

    f6cvalkyrie Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 12, 2010
    Brussels, Belgium
    Hi, Brian,

    your technique is interesting.
    It made me laugh and think immediately of this old blues song by Jr Wells

    YouTube - Junior Wells-Two Headed Woman

    "keeps two eyes on me, two more eyes on you"

    :biggrin::biggrin:

    thanks for sharing, your tip is excellent !

    C U
    Rafael
     
  3. Streetshooter

    Streetshooter Administrator Emeritus Subscribing Member Charter Member

    Dec 15, 2009
    Phila, Pa USA
    That's a method most Leica M shooters use.
    What I find interesting is,
    Most M shooters like the Pen style and most SLR shooters prefer the G style of EVF.

    I always keep both eyes open even with the screen.
    With the screen, keep the camera off axis from your dominant eye. Your secondary eye reads the subject and then focuses on the screen for exposure.
    Great way to frame...
     
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  4. Ulfric M Douglas

    Ulfric M Douglas Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 6, 2010
    Northumberland
    Or my eyes are going to end up like the chameleon's, or that bloke from the westerns who was the proctologist in the Canonball Run ! :eek:

    ...seriously though I will go try it ... sometime. When I remember.
     
  5. Brian S

    Brian S Mu-43 Top Veteran Charter Member

    714
    Apr 11, 2009
    The time-lag required for your brain to start your finger moving and trip the shutter is long compared with the lag of the EVF of the EP2, or the LCD screen. After reading this thread, I started my chronograph in motion and tried taking pictures of the 1/10th second dial as it cross the zero point. I could routinely hit 0.1s to 0.2s.Switched to the M8, and could routinely hit 0.1s. The travel on the M8 release is about the same for a mechanical Leica. I tried to be fair and start when I saw the hand cross the 0 point. Pressing the release too quickly resulted in camera shake.

    On the EP2- some modes will cause more lag for the finder, such as artistic mode. I have things set to manual operation. I've had very good luck capturing action shots. There is a lag on the EP2 as it closes and then re-opens the shutter. This is much like a Kodak Retina Reflex. I shoot with one eye closed, whether using an SLR or a rangefinder camera. The extended FOV of the rangefinder is nice. But after using an SLR for 40 years, it gets to be second nature.
     
  6. Brian Mosley

    Brian Mosley Administrator Emeritus Charter Member

    Dec 15, 2009
    Hi Brian,

    are you saying there's little/no difference in performance between using the Pen EVF vs M8 rangefinder to frame, follow and capture a critical moment?

    Cheers

    Brian
     
  7. Brian S

    Brian S Mu-43 Top Veteran Charter Member

    714
    Apr 11, 2009
    When you look at the "system level performance with man-in-the-loop triggering", there is much less of a difference than you might imagine. The "long-straw" is the human. You can only press the release so quickly without shaking the camera.

    The EP2 has slightly longer lag once the release is pressed. The throw of the release is less than on the M8 and most cameras. It is well designed, and I suspect some time is made up there.

    This test was designed to measure "lag" in between the time that a decision was made to take the picture and the picture actually being made. Time to focus and frame was irrelevant. It did indicate that delay of seeing the image on the external EVF or the screen was small compared to overall delays.

    As to the bigger question of tracking and following the subject: the M8 finder does not black out and you can easily pan the camera to follow the subject during a long exposure. It is easier to use at the skating rink. This applies to rangefinders vs SLR's in general.
     
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  8. Brian Mosley

    Brian Mosley Administrator Emeritus Charter Member

    Dec 15, 2009
    That surprises me... I think there's a dramatic difference between, say the E-3 using OVF and the E-P2 with EVF.

    The trouble with trying to predict the moment you wish to capture using the EVF, is that there's a fraction of a second lag in feeding the image to the EVF - so even if you predict to the millisecond when to release the shutter, you're still going to miss the moment.

    Cheers

    Brian
     
  9. Brian S

    Brian S Mu-43 Top Veteran Charter Member

    714
    Apr 11, 2009
    The travel on a focal plane shutter with a 1/250th sync speed is 4 milliseconds. The discharge rate of an electronic flash is under 1 millisecond. Leave the camera on bulb and use a flash to illuminate the scene for the exposure if you need 1 millisecond timing. We had a framing camera that worked that way, made 1.6million frames per second. It also used a Helium Turbine for a motor drive.
     
  10. Brian Mosley

    Brian Mosley Administrator Emeritus Charter Member

    Dec 15, 2009
    :biggrin: sounds practical.

    Cheers

    Brian
     
  11. Brian S

    Brian S Mu-43 Top Veteran Charter Member

    714
    Apr 11, 2009
    From our vacation last week.

    EP2 with external Electronic Viewfinder.

    Nikkor 5cm F2 Leica Mount, manual focus, Auto exposure, ISO 100

    [​IMG]

    Nikkor 5cm F1.4 Leica Mount, Manual Focus, Auto-exposure, ISO 200.

    [​IMG]

    Child is running asynchronously from Dad. Visual triggering criteria made via EVF.
     
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  12. Amin Sabet

    Amin Sabet Administrator Moderator

    Apr 10, 2009
    Boston, MA (USA)
    I've used a similar technique for a long time with pocket cameras - LCD for framing, "real vision" for timing. I think it makes a difference and that "LCD (or EVF) lag" can be a significant factor. That's not to say that one can't get precise timing with an EVF as Brian S showed, but I think it requires a bit of compensation (releasing a bit early).

    I blogged about these issues a couple years ago here. Andy Piper has a nice illustration of his "EVF lag" results in his Digilux 2 review.
     
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  13. Brian Mosley

    Brian Mosley Administrator Emeritus Charter Member

    Dec 15, 2009
    Nice shots Brian, are these intended to prove a point?

    Cheers

    Brian
     
  14. JoeFriday

    JoeFriday Mu-43 Regular

    88
    Jun 28, 2010
    Milwaukee, WI
    I see Nikki is still your favorite test subject. :)
     
  15. Brian S

    Brian S Mu-43 Top Veteran Charter Member

    714
    Apr 11, 2009
    Thanks Brett- and Nikki still likes having her picture taken. Even more, she likes movies made with the Digital.

    As far as proving a point, I guess so- but I think the whole Lag thing is a non-issue. I just do not think of the EP2 and its EVF as having any more of an issue with lag as does a Kodak Retina Reflex or any other camera. All of them have lag, and you have to compensate. The EVF is a source of lag, that is "drowned out in the noise" of overall lag.
     
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  16. BBW

    BBW Super Moderator Emeritus Charter Member

    Interesting thread. I appreciate reading and learning here. I've definitely not mastered this at all, but I honestly haven't tried much - but now I have some good pointers.
     
  17. Streetshooter

    Streetshooter Administrator Emeritus Subscribing Member Charter Member

    Dec 15, 2009
    Phila, Pa USA
    Photography is like music. Your either in time or out of time with the note.
    Lag is the difference between digital and analog.
    The camera is digital. The eye/finger is analog.
    If you develop a sense of timing with the camera, there is no lag. The finger is the true organ of photography.
    That is where any lag will generate.
    Not the camera.
     
  18. Brian S

    Brian S Mu-43 Top Veteran Charter Member

    714
    Apr 11, 2009
    The EVF is what sold me on the EP2, now I have a pair of them. According to the article, The lag on that Digilux 2 was 1/12sec- it is a 6+ year old camera. The lag on my much older Digital cameras is even longer.

    The lag on the EVF of the EP2 is much reduced, to the point where it is a small portion of the overall system lag.
     
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  19. Brian S

    Brian S Mu-43 Top Veteran Charter Member

    714
    Apr 11, 2009
    Just for fun- I powered up the late 90s Coolpix 600, and viewed the chronograph on the LCD. The delay was about 1/2 second. The hand on the watch moves in 0.05second increments.
     
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