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EVF and the actual image problem. ..

Discussion in 'Olympus Cameras' started by fransglans, Dec 24, 2014.

  1. fransglans

    fransglans Mu-43 Top Veteran

    991
    Jun 12, 2012
    Sweden
    gus
    Hi. this is really a newbie question I know. And I don't know if I've accidentally changed something in my Olympus em5 menys...

    but the thing is...

    when I shot something indoors in really dim light. like the christmas tree. and I set my camera to f/1.4 and spotmeter with auto iso which gives me about iso 2500. the scene looks GREAT in my evf. I have a minus exposure compensation and I shoot in A mode. but when the shutter is pressed the shot turns out over exposured.

    I want the camera to take the exactly same photo as it shows up for me in the evf while im half pressing the shutter.... what am I doing wrong.. please could someone help me :)

    thanks in advance.

    /gus
     
  2. fortwodriver

    fortwodriver Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Nov 15, 2013
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Frank
    Are you spot metering a middle-grey? If you spot-meter a dark tree in a dark room, you may actually have to -2EV or more so dark things stay dark. How much "minus" are you giving it?

    Otherwise, the spot meter thinks everything you point it at is a middle grey and it will pull exposure up on a dark object to make it so. What about matrix metering... does it do the same thing in matrix?

    Do you have live-view boost turned on? Have you checked the histogram? Is the histogram showing blown highlights?
     
  3. fransglans

    fransglans Mu-43 Top Veteran

    991
    Jun 12, 2012
    Sweden
    gus
    i have live view boost set to off.

    I use ael lock to set my exposure. and I have found that to be great. but sometimes the exposures shows up as a different anyway. not always. but sometimes. I think its odd. when the exposure is locked it should be locked right? but I guess the problem shows up when I try to change the exposure compensation AFTER fixing the exposure with the ael lock...
     
  4. fransglans

    fransglans Mu-43 Top Veteran

    991
    Jun 12, 2012
    Sweden
    gus
    I guess I will go fully manual. That brings no surprises but takes a bit longer. but I guess its a learning curve..
     
  5. David A

    David A Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 30, 2011
    Brisbane, Australia
    Several issues.

    First, there are some settings which apply to the viewfinder/LCD screen which don't affect the image but which do affect what the camera shows you, both when you're taking the photo and then afterwards if you're reviewing it on the camera.

    Second, as fortwodriver points out, there's the Live View Boost setting. If it's set to "On", the camera shows you an image which doesn't adjust as you apply exposure compensation, and which also is as bright as possible. If you set Live View Boost to "Off" what you see in the viewfinder/on the LCD screen while you're taking the photo is going to be a lot closer to the actual image you get.

    Three, are you shooting RAW or JPEG? A number of the camera settings affect the camera's internal JPEG processing and what you see in the viewfinder/on the screen is a JPEG display and it is controlled in part by those particular settings. Those settings are not applied to the RAW file and, depending on what those settings are, the RAW file can look very different indeed.

    Four, when you download the image to your computer and look at it in an image editing application like Lightroom or Aperture or iPhoto or whatever, that application applies a certain amount of default processing to the image it displays. The camera doesn't know what processing program you're using, what settings it's going to apply, and it has no way of showing you what the image with those settings applied is going to look like. This issue is going to have a lot more affect on what the processing program shows you if you're shooting RAW rather than shooting JPEG because RAW files tend to look quite different to JPEGs, especially when first viewed in the processing program with default processing applied and before you start adjusting the processing to your tastes.

    Finally, do you REALLY want the camera to take exactly the same photo it shows you in the EVF when you're half pressing the shutter button? The EVF gives you a pretty low resolution image and your computer is capable of much higher quality image display. I shoot RAW and I'd rather the camera take a file that looks different to what it shows me in the EVF if that file is capable of delivering much better results when I process it to suit my tastes. Typically what I see in the viewfinder/on the screen tells me enough about the photo to let me adjust exposure and framing to get what I want but if I'm shooting a landscape with a wide dynamic range and there's nice clouds in the sky with a lot of detail in them and a lot of foliage in the landscape that is much darker than the clouds and also has detail, I can tell you that there's absolutely no way that what I see in the viewfinder is going to look like the finished photo because the odds are that about the only place where you're going to be able to see detail in the viewfinder is going to be in the sky and clouds and everything else will be showing much darker than it's going to end up after processing. Of course I can adjust exposure and the viewfinder will show me nice detail in the foliage and everything else but the clouds are then going to be blown out and detail in them will probably be clipped and lost. The viewfinder is simply not a high enough quality display for me to want the file the camera captures to look exactly like what the EVF shows me for probably the majority of my shots. It's really only for low dynamic range scenes that you'd want the viewfinder to match the actual photo.

    Most of the time the photo you take is going to look different to what you see in the viewfinder, sometimes not too different and sometimes a great deal different. The viewfinder simply can't display all that well what the camera is capable of capturing. If you swap to a DSLR with an optical viewfinder you'll find that what the viewfinder shows you is different to the photo in some very different ways, and if you go back to the old days of film the only thing you could be certain of is that what the viewfinder was showing you was likely to be very different to what you saw after you had the film processed and looked at some prints. In fact, throughout the whole history of photography photographers have been seeing something in the viewfinder that didn't look the same as the photo they took looked. I think EVF's actually get us a bit closer to a match between viewfinder and image in some ways but they still can't pull off the trick of showing us just what the final photo is going to look like. I think you're expecting too much from your viewfinder display. You may well be able to get it a bit closer to what the actual photo looks like than what you're seeing at present but you're never going to be able to get the viewfinder display and the actual photo to look identical all of the time, at least with current EVFs. I think that kind of EVF display technology is still a couple of decades away at least.
     
  6. David A

    David A Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 30, 2011
    Brisbane, Australia
    Exposure lock locks the exposure at the meter's recommendation end exposure compensation will then adjust the locked exposure. I suspect your problem is with scenes with high dynamic ranges, like a christmas tree with lights in a dark room. The EVF is simply a very inadequate display to show you what the camera is capturing with that type of scene. It lacks the resolution to display gradations in brightness around the lights all that well, and it isn't going to do a good job at showing tonal gradation and brightness in the dark areas, and also in the very light areas.

    Do me a favour. Try taking another shot of that christmas tree in the dark room but set your meter mode to Spot Highlight and place the spot over one of the brightest lights, then lock your exposure. Don't apply any exposure compensation. See how the scene looks in the viewfinder then see how it looks in the actual photo and let us know if what the viewfinder shows you is closer to the photo you get. If it is, then I think part of your problem is with your metering technique and what you're measuring in spot mode. I think you're still shooting a scene that the EVF isn't capable of displaying well and a lot of scenes are like that.
     
  7. fransglans

    fransglans Mu-43 Top Veteran

    991
    Jun 12, 2012
    Sweden
    gus
    thanks David for your effort here.

    im shooting raw.

    and no I dont care for how good the evf looks. they only thing i care for is how it shows the actual exposure.

    when I shoot in full manual. no auto iso. they final image is the absolute same as when im half pressing... and its so nice to set the exposure and get what u set

    but its not behaving the same in A mode. and i dont know yet if it the exposure comp. or something else.

    i have set the live boost to off...
     
  8. fransglans

    fransglans Mu-43 Top Veteran

    991
    Jun 12, 2012
    Sweden
    gus
    this is how I used to do things. and now when im trying again. it works. even in A mode.

    Its annoying. but it really didnt work out yesterday. Im shooting alot and is far from a newbie :)

    So I guess I dont have a answer to why it sometimes just overexposure a scene. when im doing the same thing as the shots before.

    this is my routine. in A mode

    auto iso

    spotmeter the brightest part in the scene.

    lock that light

    re compose

    halfpress

    adjust a bit with the Exposure compensation.

    shoot.
     
  9. kbouk

    kbouk Mu-43 Rookie

    19
    Dec 21, 2013
    Greece
    try to spotmeter to the brightest part in the scene with HI-spot meter mode assign on AFL button, big difference will make on spot meter how big is the bright part and if the spot circle can cover it.
     
  10. fransglans

    fransglans Mu-43 Top Veteran

    991
    Jun 12, 2012
    Sweden
    gus
    update. when i go through yesterdays picture. The iso is very different. from 500 to 2500.

    i guess it must be something with auto iso that blows up exposure.
     
  11. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 Top Veteran

    649
    Mar 26, 2014
    UK
    I suggest you stop using the spot metering for a while. It really is a spot you are metering, so unless you know exactly why you have chosen a spot and which spot you will get wildly varying results.
     
  12. fransglans

    fransglans Mu-43 Top Veteran

    991
    Jun 12, 2012
    Sweden
    gus
    why? I have used it for a year and its great. I think matrix metering works so unpredictable. it takes more time to get it right.

    spotmetering is no rocket sciende. you aim at the light that you want to keep in the scene. then lock with ael. recompose. and shoot. this works great until yesterday. and today its working too. There's just some circumstances in A mode when auto iso is on when somethings happen. and I try to figure out what. there's no problems in full manual mode.
     
  13. eteless

    eteless Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jun 20, 2014
    The viewfinder shows you exactly the scene as it will be exposed with matrix, however as you recompose using spot the viewfinder will automatically readjust the brightness of the scene to whatever the spot is pointed at. When using the spot metering mode if you point it at something at -2 EV it assumes the ENTIRE scene is -2ev rather than just what you're pointing it at, the viewfinder isn't as smart as people give it credit on Olympus cameras using spot metering. It doesn't actually lock the view to the exposure settings set on the camera unless using matrix, rather it looks the area it's set to meter then adjusts the entire screen given what it can see in that metering area given your settings. Remembering that if it goes outside the range of +/- 3 EV it clips and the view stops looking anything like what the final picture will be regardless of settings.

    If you use matrix the viewfinder will be always accurate as it's metered off the entire scene unless you use AEL, thus moving around and changing the framing will change the exposure for the entire frame.


    All of this is pretty easy to show, cover the front of the lens with your hand and use AEL (depending on the settings it may be activated by a half press of the shutter) then take your hand away, The entire scene will be hugely overexposed regardless of settings which would provide a correct exposure and regardless of if you're using viewfinder boost or not, you can exploit this to see into very dark areas which would otherwise be underexposed in the viewfinder (it can be useful when focusing on infinity or dark objects at night sometimes to really give a huge boost to the viewfinder image).
     
  14. fransglans

    fransglans Mu-43 Top Veteran

    991
    Jun 12, 2012
    Sweden
    gus
    thanks alot ETELESS! great explanation and lots of ideas. maybe it is better to work with matrix anyway, just like growltiger pointed out.

    Anyway. I will mess around and try to learn something.
     
  15. eteless

    eteless Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jun 20, 2014
    All modes have their uses, matrix is good however I find spot metering far more valuable at night when I desire one area of an image to get correct exposure and don't really care about the rest. I just wish I could lock the viewfinder exposure to the entire view and the meter to the spot rather than having it change as I look around(without using AEL).

    Using spot metering in highlights or shadows mode in combination with AEL is really fast and lazy with automatic to get a more accurate exposure than pure automatic settings also, again it's really good at night as you can lock and recompose.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. janneman

    janneman Mu-43 Veteran

    414
    Dec 6, 2012
    Netherlands
    Jan (John) Kusters
    Like you, I find Matrix unpredictable too, mostly because there is no way of knowing what algorithm the camera will use to set exposure.
    I don't think spot metering is the way to go, using a spot meter propperly is slow and cumbersome. I have used a spotmeter most of my life with film, but that was usually for studio work or slow landscape work. It would take several measurements to check the contrast of lighting, and set the camera manual to a carefully chosen average.

    You also have 'centre weighted metering' available; that has an algorithm that does not change with different situations, and in most modern camera's, after some learning, it can be the most predictable way to measure light. Well set blinkies for shadows and highlights are a usefull help as well. But when you shoot raw, always remember that the representation of the camera is not the final one...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. You mention that you are shooting in very dim light. Maybe the light levels so low that the camera can't actually boost the brightness of the display enough to simulate the final exposure.
     
  18. eteless

    eteless Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jun 20, 2014
    With slower lenses this is a very real problem however I would argue that once it is a problem you would be at tripod required shutter speeds and thus it doesn't actually matter all that much. I've only really run into it doing silly things. The limit that the camera can boost EVF is reached at around -8 EVs when using an f1.0 lens, which is also the brightness of the Milky way fwiw.

    It's not that the camera cannot boost exposure enough for you to see, it's that it stops boosting or subtracting gain from the EVF at +/- 3 EVs. It does this because otherwise you will not be able to see anything at all, if it displayed the picture as actually taken the frame and thus EVF would be blank or washed out bright white (depending on plus or minus exposure).

    If you use different tricks you can actually push the gain on the EVF far past what normal display boost will, one example of this is using art filter 10 (Dramatic tone) combined with a +2 saturation value, because of the graduation curve it applies it will allow you to see far into the shadows with the increased saturation.
     
  19. Just did a test using my E-M5 in a dark room where the camera and lens settings read f/1.4, 1/4 sec and ISO 3200 using the 25mm f1.4 lens. I don't know how many -EVs that is but the end result was that the final image was much brighter than what I saw previewed on the screen.
     
  20. fortwodriver

    fortwodriver Mu-43 Top Veteran

    959
    Nov 15, 2013
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Frank
    Actually this is NOT how spot metering works. It only tells the camera where your middle-grey is. If you spot meter something black, or dark, and want to keep it dark, you must minus your exposure to do that (-EV).

    Spot metering isn't "smart". Likewise, if you point the spot-meter at something bright, it will shorten the exposure to bring it down to middle-grey. So you'd need to increase your exposure to compensate (+EV)