ETTR - the "Experts" have spoken...

PakkyT

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Go back and read the LuLa thread I linked to earlier
Took me a minute to figure out what "LuLa" is. :doh:

Interesting read. Is there a page 2 and 3 to that? When I click them I don't go to a new page but instead get an "index.php" file download.
 

PakkyT

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M43 cameras aren't isoless so there is a real gain in IQ with higher ISO.
That also means that ETTR could be in theory used at higher than base ISO.
But truth is that RAW shooter can limit its M43 camera at range ISO200-400 and will loose almost nothing in the IQ area.
It can be seen here at Dpreview site where images taken at the same physical exposure (aperture/shutter speed) but at different ISO setting can be compared.
Well great. Now you sent me into the black hole known as "ISO invariance", so lots of reading and digesting I need to do. This is all your fault you know. :mad:

:flowers_2:
 
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I have uploaded 2 raw files to Dropbox and only showed JPEG’s from these two files in my previous posts.

I’m doing all this from my phone so it’s possible there are some sidecar files there that I’m not seeing but that shouldn’t be a problem.
OK I looked at them. They wouldn't open in PS, is that normal? I studied them in PhotLab 3. WorkSpace only up to two stops. This is a duplicate example of what Peter Forsgard presented in his ISO Variance video. Must say its remarkable results...

Why is your camera set for srgb? Try rgb, edit rgb and save in srgb when uploading to the web...

The problem with this test is it has no real-life application - not what I can see?

Maybe you could move your baseline to ISO200 and then try variations from there...

Best

 
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RichDesmond

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Took me a minute to figure out what "LuLa" is. :doh:

Interesting read. Is there a page 2 and 3 to that? When I click them I don't go to a new page but instead get an "index.php" file download.
Sorry, shouldn't have abbreviated. Look at all the extra typing it's cost me now. :)

Anyway, that's odd, for me clicking on the "2" or "3" page number brings them up. Here are direct links to all 3 pages.

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=56906.0

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=56906.20

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=56906.40

For those wondering, what's shown in that thread is that increasing exposure in post is not the same as bumping ISO. For example, if, for a given f-stop and SS, you need ISO 1600 to get a good exposure, it's better to do that than to leave the camera at ISO 200 and bump up 3 stops in post.

This is not directly related to ETTR, but some of the posts here indicate some confusion on this point.
 

pdk42

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Honestly guys, Siegfried is determined to lead you into madness. I'm bailing out of this thread - if I carry on I'll be like Herbert Lom as Clouseau's boss in The Pink Panther movies - eyebrows twitching and carted off to the mental asylum.


FWIW - my own proof that Siegfried's "high ISO ETTR" is a delusion is here.
 

PakkyT

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Why is your camera set for srgb? Try rgb, edit rgb and save in srgb when uploading to the web...
Many of us choose to use sRGB (over Adobe RGB) cause it is more universally used and really unless you KNOW you are going to use something (printer, display, etc.) that is set for aRGB) you are likely to get something a bit off. But, at least for me, while my camera is set for sRGB, I shoot in RAW so that setting doesn't really matter at all since it is easy to churn out a JPG in either version. And for the points in this discussion (ETTR) if you are not shooting in RAW you are really tying your hands in what you can do or recover on the computer if you are starting out with jpegs.


For those wondering, what's shown in that thread is that increasing exposure in post is not the same as bumping ISO.
To add (having not yet read pages 2 and 3 (thanks for the links)), keep in mind that this discussion happened nearly a decade ago so certainly sensor technology has evolved since then. So many sensor technology points made may or may not still be true.
 

John King

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Great image John - I love the 12-50mm, probably one of Olympus best...

You do not say but it looks like the image was taken in Aperture Mode and you did not alter the exposure. If the case you could have dropped the background noise with 10 - 15% and increased the details between 5 - 8% by increasing the exposure with +/- half a stop at ISO6400.

It does seem you have no issue correcting the exposure in raw?
Siegfried, thank you.

That is an OoC JPEG with a small USM to compensate for all my cameras being set with noise filter low or off and likewise sharpening.

While the 12-50 macro isn't in the same league as my better FTs and mFTs lenses, I agree that it is far better than many give it credit for. That shot was in macro mode (43mm).

I posted this photo to show the importance of getting one's exposure correct in camera. That necessarily involves knowing how the metering modes work. I took one shot, as is my usual practice.

Bruce Postle reinforced this, even if it didn't need it, and he used mostly medium format film. A very nice man. He has been to our home once.
 
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John King

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Many of us choose to use sRGB (over Adobe RGB) cause it is more universally used and really unless you KNOW you are going to use something (printer, display, etc.) that is set for aRGB) you are likely to get something a bit off.
I always shoot RAW + JPEG. My cameras are all set to aRGB for the wider, balanced colour space. I convert to sRGB for the web and similar uses only. IMHO, sRGB is both deficient (too narrow) and defective (colour axes are not of equal length).

I process RAWs in 16 bit ProPhotoRGB. While my monitor is only 100% aRGB, with a 14 bit colour LUT and 12 bit panel, my printer is 16 bit, and will print most of a ProPhotoRGB colour space. I only very rarely do any colour adjustments, thanks to the well designed CFA in Olympus cameras.

I agree that it helps if you understand what you are doing.
 

hoggdoc

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I watched this video from Robin Wong yesterday. I would be interested to hear where he is wrong if he is.

He says ETTR won't reduce noise at all in low-light situations when you up the ISO number. He says getting the exposure right is the most important thing for quality. And that in landscape photography with low ISO ETTR works.

Personally in low-light I will use Manual Mode with Auto-ISO and Exposure Compensation. What I'm wondering shouldn't I try to ETTR in this situation?

Actually what I took from Robin's video was with each increase in the ISO there was increasing loss of detail even when using the ETTR technique. He really didn't speak much about noise.
 

John King

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I do not agree with the concept of using base ISO then lifting exposure in post. Here is why, all taken at ISO 100, which isn't in the image/s EXIF, probably because it got lost when I moved all my images from one web gallery s/w to ZenPhoto.

With this first image, the studio strobes didn't trigger, so a tad underexposed!

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


The same image, but lifted about 5 stops in post:

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


Hmmm. Seem to have lost a bit of data here!

This next shot was taken after we got the strobe triggers working properly.

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


Note exposure times of all the images.

I know, the last shot is also rotten, but these are good examples of trying to lift images from a 2003 sensor in post.

Camera was my dear old Nikon Coolpix E5000 - 5 MPx, P&S, with a full metal jacket. Nice little camera for its day - and bloody expensive! Retailed new for around AUD$1,500!
 

Hannety

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4 pages - it isn't that complicated.

When the dynamic range (that you care about) of the scene is less than the dynamic range of your camera then increasing exposure to place the scene range at the top (or right histogram wise) of the camera range and reducing 'exposure' by the same amount in post will produce an image with minimum noise.

It doesn't have to be at base ISO although increasing ISO decreases camera dynamic range and increasing ISO always increases noise except where you simply can't get enough light to fully expose the sensor.
 
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Siegfried, thank you.

That is an OoC JPEG with a small USM to compensate for all my cameras being set with noise filter low or off and likewise sharpening.

While the 12-50 macro isn't in the same league as my better FTs and mFTs lenses, I agree that it is far better than many give it credit for. That shot was in macro mode (43mm).

I posted this photo to show the importance of getting one's exposure correct in camera. That necessarily involves knowing how the metering modes work. I took one shot, as is my usual practice.

Bruce Postle reinforced this, even if it didn't need it, and he used mostly medium format film. A very nice man. He has been to our home once.
Wow-what an honor to meet a guy like Bruce Postle, you a blessed man John...

I do the same with noise, in fact I have been experimenting with the different options in WorkSpace and find it very promising. I read people adjust the sharpness in the camera. I never found a need to do that but its OK and a decision each photographer should make...

I can see you comfortable with your camera - I did not see which one use, is it the EM1 MKI or one of the later models?

Best

Siegfried
 
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John King

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Wow-what an honor to meet a guy like Bruce Postle, you a blessed my John...
Too true, Siegfried!

He gave a talk at the local photo club. I bought one of his limited edition books, and he offered to deliver it to me at home. Spent a few hours here, and commented very nicely on some of my hanging prints. Very nice and knowledgeable man. He didn't believe in bracketing. He believed in getting it right the first time. I interpret this to mean that one should aim to become a competent photographer - being one who can reliably capture a competent image the first time round. I follow this principle, and always have.

I do the same with noise, in fact I have been experimenting with the different options in WorkSpace and find it very promising. I read people adjust the sharpness in the camera. I never found a need to do that but its OK and a decision each photographer should make...
I REALLY do not like Workspace. Great that Olympus supply it. I have been using Photoshop for far too long, I guess. More to the point, I use PS as an appendage to ACR for the most part.

I can see you comfortable with your camera - I did not see which one use, is it the EM1 MKI or one of the later models?
It was with my E-M1 MkI. A much underrated camera and an almost universally underrated lens. The 'original' on my web site is here:

https://canopuscomputing.com.au/zen2/albums/cats/E-M1_JAK_2016-_2112446_Ew.jpg

I got an unbelievable deal on my E-M1 MkI. A mate at Olympus told me that a shop on the other side of Melbourne had one they desperately wanted to get rid of, as temporarily moving while the store was renovated. I paid about 60% of the body price alone, and it came in a kit with the 12-50 macro. They also threw in an extra OEM battery.

Best

Siegfried
Take care, mate.
 
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Have you checked for updates (PS and Camera Raw)?

In camera options are SRGB or Adobe RGB. Conversion to jpeg done in LR on my phone using whatever it defaults to.
Remembering your criticism of Robin Wong’s Test, my shot uses natural light. Thought the range of colours would be a good test too. But, like I said, a minor global pandemic has limited my ability to shoot landscapes recently so I was unable to do a wide outdoor shot (which would inevitably have introduced atmospheric haze).
I’m not sure I follow. Are you suggesting a zero EV ISO 200 shot? Compared with...? Clear that up and I’ll see what I can do. Might have to wait until tomorrow now though.
I think this video from 2016 says it all...

The one thing he did not mention - with Oly cameras one can cancel live view and see a full image on the screen at any ISO... From what I see, ISO invariance is a method canceling lower DR one will get at higher ISO's - I never had this problem to date...

 

comment23

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Thanks for all the time you’ve put into this Siegfried. Even if I don’t follow everything you’re saying, it’s got me to test this ETTR/ISO invariance stuff for my equipment and the conclusion I’ve drawn is that I can’t see any significant difference worth changing my technique for. That will save me a lot of energy worrying about it in the future. Cheers.
 
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Thanks for all the time you’ve put into this Siegfried. Even if I don’t follow everything you’re saying, it’s got me to test this ETTR/ISO invariance stuff for my equipment and the conclusion I’ve drawn is that I can’t see any significant difference worth changing my technique for. That will save me a lot of energy worrying about it in the future. Cheers.
I really appreciate your feedback, thank you.

I continued updating my short article on ETTR in an effort to make it as simple as possible and as clear as possible.

We are always faced with these two challenges:-
  1. There are times that we have no choice but to increase the ISO
  2. Olympus cameras generally take "conservative" exposure readings
My advice is to follow these simple steps when you forced to use higher ISO values:-
  1. Fix the ISO to a fixed value (Go to the SCP and select your ISO value)
  2. Use your preferred method to select your exposure and press the shutter halfway
  3. Check the histogram (the exposure meter should read 0EV)
  4. If there is free space to the right of the histogram, up the exposure compensation and see how the histogram moves to the right
  5. When you happy with your exposure & histogram...
  6. Take the image
Your image will be a little overexposed. This is easy to correct in the camera or in Photoshop.

The advantage is you have more image data to work with in post and less noise at whatever ISO you used.

In terms of ISO invariance. I can see applications like night or astrophotography and possibly others. What did not change is how consumer cameras spread the tonal data across the tonal range.

Have fun, learn a basic new technique and be good to the cat 😎

Best

Siegfried
 
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I do not agree with the concept of using base ISO then lifting exposure in post. Here is why, all taken at ISO 100, which isn't in the image/s EXIF, probably because it got lost when I moved all my images from one web gallery s/w to ZenPhoto.

With this first image, the studio strobes didn't trigger, so a tad underexposed!

The same image, but lifted about 5 stops in post:

Hmmm. Seem to have lost a bit of data here!

This next shot was taken after we got the strobe triggers working properly.

Note exposure times of all the images.

I know, the last shot is also rotten, but these are good examples of trying to lift images from a 2003 sensor in post.

Camera was my dear old Nikon Coolpix E5000 - 5 MPx, P&S, with a full metal jacket. Nice little camera for its day - and bloody expensive! Retailed new for around AUD$1,500!
John, I see you enjoy your older camera bodies.

I think you tested a version of ISO variance with these images. Try these steps:-
  1. Let the camera auto-select the exposure and ISO (preferable a higher ISO)
  2. Keep the shutter speed & aperture the same and drop the ISO to the base value
  3. Take the image (will be a dark image)
  4. Up the image brightness in Photoshop
I doubt if this would have any positive on this old camera. Noise should be really ugly.

You will see the benefits of ETTR well with this camera - follow the steps I added in my previous reply

All said - I like the 2nd image - you could start a new trend 😎

Best
 

John King

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Haha, Siegfried. Those photos were taken in 2007, and the camera is long dead :rofl:.

Almost all of the photos on my web site have been taken with my progression of cameras. If you search for e.g. "e-510" or "e-1" (without the quotes) using my gallery's search function, it will throw up all the images taken with that particular camera. The search term for my E-M1 MarkI is "e-m1" and the MarkII is "E-M1MarkII" (one word in the EXIF data). Search is not case sensitive.

There are many other EXIF and keywords that can be searched for, and also the areas searched can be selected in the list icon next to the search box.

I see absolutely zero use in the ETTR technique, mainly because of the way the Olympus metering curve is shaped in most (all?) of their cameras. If shadows are really deep, you only think that you can see into them anyway, so just plug them to black, as that's how the eye/brain system perceives them anyway.

The above is why I keep imploring people to learn how to use the five metering modes properly - Matrix, Centre-weighted Spot, Centre Spot, High Key and Low Key.

I have the ISO button assigned to the REC button on my E-M1 and E-M1 MkII. I change this, or my metering mode if my exposures are not as I expect, or want. I have almost never used EC or auto-ISO ... I usually shoot in Aperture mode, then adjust either the metering mode or ISO as required by the scene.

The only exposure problems I ever had were with my E-510 at ISO 100, as this was more like ISO 125, and probably caused many reviewers and others to think that the camera blew highlights easily. I got around this by using ISO 200 and above, which were accurate. The E-510 also only had about 7.2 stops DR in JPEG (more like 10 in RAW). It shared this problem with the D700 (JPG = 7.6 stops, RAW about 11.5 stops). JPG engines have improved somewhat ... 😉 :rolleyes: :yahoo:.
 
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Haha, Siegfried. Those photos were taken in 2007, and the camera is long dead :rofl:.

The above is why I keep imploring people to learn how to use the five metering modes properly - Matrix, Centre-weighted Spot, Centre Spot, High Key and Low Key.
... 😉 :rolleyes: :yahoo:.
That's the reason ETTR has no value for you - you mastered metering and exposure...

I tried the search function... :)
 
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