EM1mk2 and rolling shutter

AussiePhil

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Let me start with.....
the mk2 is so much better than any previous Olympus camera and i believe only bettered by the Sony A9.
For all intents and purpose even for most action sports electronic shutter is eminently useful and pretty much all i've used since day 1.
As many likely now I shoot as much tennis as i can get to and the EM1mk1 would see the classic bent racket rolling shutter effect.
This essentially went away with the mk2 unless you were directly side on to a high speed server were the racket head would be moving close to 100mph at the top of the swing and then you might see it reappear...
However...... it's still there in an annoying manner and here's three examples to show what i mean, all photos originally in landscape mode
In each case the ball is in the racket strings.
This is Ash Barty currently ranked in the WTA top 10 and she has a fairly powerful hitting style
Low to the ground, both the ball and the ball shadow seem to be in the same place
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
024982-_2119184 by Phil Gartner, on Flickr

Here the racket and ball are at shoulder height, the ball shadow appears to be quite a few inches in front of the racket
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024987-_2119235 by Phil Gartner, on Flickr

Now one from a server
Again i caught the ball in the strings but the ball shadow ends up quite a way in front of the racket
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024984-_2119212 by Phil Gartner, on Flickr

It's not something you notice in a majority of photos but is obvious in these cases.
 

TomasT

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yes just photoshop photos where it jas to be xD

Now seriously, it is interesting to see this on photos.

Cant you just shoot it at 8000 .shutter speed ? I see iso 400 so i think you have there reserve to push it even faster.
 

Martin11er

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I wonder if the A9 e-shutter would have made any difference or if the tennis ball is just too fast? Did you use pro capture for this?
 
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Surely this will happen with any focal plane shutter?

Running top to bottom of the gate (bottom to top of the frame) the sensor is exposed with a moving strip of light. With the ball travelling at high speed towards the racquet and the racquet travelling at high speed towards the ball, by the time that section of the image is recorded they are going to be closer together than they were when the shadows were exposed a fraction of a second earlier.

Or, am I missing the point?
 

ac12

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Wouldn't you see a similar effect with a focal plane shutter?
1/1000 of a second does not mean the shutter moves at that speed, just a narrower slit in the curtain. It still takes 1/80 of a second (depending on the camera) to go from one side of the frame to the other.
 

Mack

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Interesting about the shadow placement delay.

For fun, try and holding the camera in portrait mode and see if it makes any difference. Some time ago I found my DJI drone's electronic shutter was taking about 1/30 sec. to travel the frame no matter the speed picked (I was trying to find the flash sync speed on it and 1/30 was the full frame top end speed, which was about the normal video frame rate speed as well.). I believe most electronic shutters can be slower than the mechanical one in their sweep speed of the blades too.

Some info here about the Sony a9 rolling shutter being about 1/160 second which might be the fastest out there: How fast is the Sony a9 electronic shutter?
 

AussiePhil

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yes just photoshop photos where it jas to be xD

Now seriously, it is interesting to see this on photos.

Cant you just shoot it at 8000 .shutter speed ? I see iso 400 so i think you have there reserve to push it even faster.
Yeah could have but 1/6400 is usually fast enough in womens matches and i don't think it would actually change the outcome.
 
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AussiePhil

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Surely this will happen with any focal plane shutter?
Running top to bottom of the gate (bottom to top of the frame) the sensor is exposed with a moving strip of light. With the ball travelling at high speed towards the racquet and the racquet travelling at high speed towards the ball, by the time that section of the image is recorded they are going to be closer together than they were when the shadows were exposed a fraction of a second earlier.

Or, am I missing the point?
I've often considered the same question and don't have an answer or data to answer it. typically this effect is attributed to read out speed for e-shutter but maybe we are purely seeing the focal plane shutter
 

AussiePhil

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I wonder if the A9 e-shutter would have made any difference or if the tennis ball is just too fast? Did you use pro capture for this?
The A9 readout based on 1/160 takes 6.25 milliseconds in which time the ball for these players would travel around 8 inches so yeah even the A9 would have this effect.
No pro-capture for these, i played tennis a lot and it's not hard to gauge players timings after a little while to get these sort of images.
 

AussiePhil

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Interesting about the shadow placement delay.

For fun, try and holding the camera in portrait mode and see if it makes any difference. Some time ago I found my DJI drone's electronic shutter was taking about 1/30 sec. to travel the frame no matter the speed picked (I was trying to find the flash sync speed on it and 1/30 was the full frame top end speed, which was about the normal video frame rate speed as well.). I believe most electronic shutters can be slower than the mechanical one in their sweep speed of the blades too.

Some info here about the Sony a9 rolling shutter being about 1/160 second which might be the fastest out there: How fast is the Sony a9 electronic shutter?
Haven't got time this morning but i do have portrait shots of serves... i'll backtrack this evening and have a look.
 

Reflector

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Wouldn't you see a similar effect with a focal plane shutter?
1/1000 of a second does not mean the shutter moves at that speed, just a narrower slit in the curtain. It still takes 1/80 of a second (depending on the camera) to go from one side of the frame to the other.
I believe that up until the flash sync speed the shutter is a full open and close rather than the scanning speed. Past that the shutter begins to contract into a slit and that's where you the flash needs to support HSS and fire off multiple times. If I'm wrong correct me about this: But the flash sync rating is roughly representative of the time needed for the shutter to act as an effective full open exposure, so on some cameras with terrible flash sync speeds that's just a function of how fast the shutter is able to open and close fully before it acts like a traveling slit.

On some cameras like the some of old CCD Nikons, they were able to drive the electronic shutter at ridiculous speeds like 1/500 to 1/800s but those were the exception.
 

Reflector

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The A9 readout based on 1/160 takes 6.25 milliseconds in which time the ball for these players would travel around 8 inches so yeah even the A9 would have this effect.
No pro-capture for these, i played tennis a lot and it's not hard to gauge players timings after a little while to get these sort of images.
There's a big exception on the A9's readout speed when compared against other cameras with an electronic shutter implementation:

The A9 doesn't read the sensor in one very quick line by line sweep, it reads off multiple lines which kind of can cause weird artifacts when it comes to rapidly strobing LEDs.
Sony a9 electronic shutter details

Still an awesome electronic shutter and I wish for the day we start seeing mechanical shutterless bodies on Micro Four Thirds that let us use lenses with crazy backfocus so we can get a LX100 pancake lens (12-37.5mm f/1.7-2.8!) See the attached image for what kind of craziness can happen if we didn't have the shutter in front of the sensor to worry about, a .58x focal reducer! (Meaning 1/3 EV slower than a 135 format body in effect for the light recovered and wider FoV)
 

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Martin11er

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The A9 readout based on 1/160 takes 6.25 milliseconds in which time the ball for these players would travel around 8 inches so yeah even the A9 would have this effect.
No pro-capture for these, i played tennis a lot and it's not hard to gauge players timings after a little while to get these sort of images.
A little (or even better: a lot of!) experience goes a long way. Well done!
 

archaeopteryx

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I've often considered the same question and don't have an answer or data to answer it.
Jim Kasson's method works for both shutter types. Potential noise restrictions aside, you could also shoot both and compare.

Curtain speeds for mechanical shutters are seldom published but the numbers I've come across are in the 3.5-4 ms range. Unlike electronic shutters, mechancials accelerate across the frame. However, I've not seen any analysis of how much artifacts vary as a result. Straightforward exercise but, myself included, doesn't seem to be anyone's priority.
 

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