E-M5 mkII vs E-M1 mkI

[Underwater]

Thanks! Are there pros to the M5mkII over the EM1?

For me, I use the M5mkII for snap shots, macro work, astro stuff (Milky Way shots) and pretty much anytime I need a generalist camera, if that makes sense. Along with the *almost* pocketability you can get with a small lens like the 20mm, it has better IBIS and better dark frame subtraction (for long exposure stuff). S-AF is unforgettable because it's quick and unerringly reliable, but you'd be better off using the pull and pray method than trying to do anything with C-AF.

I'm wedded to my M1mkI because I dive with it and would need a different housing to upgrade to the M1mkII (although the latest firmware upgrade has me thinking about a divorce). Along with underwater stuff, I mainly use it with either of my two SHG 4/3 lenses (150f2 or 35-100f2). C-AF is decent, but nothing spectacular.

If you're shooting with an E-510, the ability to shoot 4/3 lenses might be the deciding factor as you'd be able to shoot AF with the M1. If not for that, and if C-AF wasn't a priority, I'd go with the M5mkII. Maybe sell some plasma and get both?

 

[Michael Meissner]

I'm not so concerned about system differences (my current backup is an E-510!), but I do want to take a step forward and not merely sideways or backward. You've all given me a lot to consider. Thanks!

I've shot with a 4 4/3rds cameras (E-1, E-510, E-3, E-5) and 7 micro 4/3rds cameras (E-P2, E-PM2, E-M5 mark I, E-M1 mark I, G85, E-M10 mark II, and AIR A01), and the E-510 was one of two cameras that I actively disliked (the other was the AIR A01 that returned within the 30 day period). I was so glad when I was finally able to upgrade to the E-3 and sell the E-510.

You presumably knows its quirks and can work around them. While eventually towards the end, I could produce reasonable pictures with the E-510 with the four or so work arounds I came up with, it was never an easy process.

If you don't need the weather sealing, I like the E-m10 mark II, and if you look around you can still get them fairly cheap, but the supply of new/refurbished ones is drying up. The E-m10 mark III doesn't do anything for me, neither do the recent E-PL<x> Pens. In terms of my previous comment about viewfinders, the E-m10 mark II has an OLED viewfinder, so you can shoot with polarized sunglasses (the E-m10 mark III and Pen-F also have OLED viewfinders).

I specifically bought the E-m10 mark II to use in bright sun. So far in 2019, I've used the E-m1 mark I 38% of the time and the E-m10 mark II 26%. While I have the G85 (which also has an OLED viewfinder), since I've used Olympus since 2002, and it is burned into my shooting reflexes. I tend to find issues with some of the Panasonic default behaviors. If I only shot Panasonic, I would adapt, but I find myself going back to Olympus cameras after shooting Panasonic (except for video, where the G85 wins).

 

[sunny]

Maybe sell some plasma and get both?

LOL! I might have to consider that! And maybe a kidney for a new lens! I have a couple of 4/3 lenses that I love, but the focus is really slow on the EM5, so I don't usually use them that way.

I've shot with a 4 4/3rds cameras (E-1, E-510, E-3, E-5) and 7 micro 4/3rds cameras (E-P2, E-PM2, E-M5 mark I, E-M1 mark I, G85, E-M10 mark II, and AIR A01), and the E-510 was one of two cameras that I actively disliked (the other was the AIR A01 that returned within the 30 day period). I was so glad when I was finally able to upgrade to the E-3 and sell the E-510.

Very interesting! The E-510 was my first "big" camera, and so maybe I just adapted to the quirks without knowing about them! I must say, the transition to the E-M5 mkI was quite easy, so maybe the 510 is a good training tool!

If you don't need the weather sealing, I like the E-m10 mark II, and if you look around you can still get them fairly cheap, but the supply of new/refurbished ones is drying up. The E-m10 mark III doesn't do anything for me, neither do the recent E-PL<x> Pens. In terms of my previous comment about viewfinders, the E-m10 mark II has an OLED viewfinder, so you can shoot with polarized sunglasses (the E-m10 mark III and Pen-F also have OLED viewfinders).

I haven't considered this; will have to look into it. I have basically given up on sunglasses if I have my camera out. I've become a squinter.

I specifically bought the E-m10 mark II to use in bright sun. So far in 2019, I've used the E-m1 mark I 38% of the time and the E-m10 mark II 26%. While I have the G85 (which also has an OLED viewfinder), since I've used Olympus since 2002, and it is burned into my shooting reflexes. I tend to find issues with some of the Panasonic default behaviors. If I only shot Panasonic, I would adapt, but I find myself going back to Olympus cameras after shooting Panasonic (except for video, where the G85 wins).

This leads me to ask what you are using the other % of the time. Phone?

Thanks again for all of the info and conversation!

 

[Michael Meissner]

Very interesting! The E-510 was my first "big" camera, and so maybe I just adapted to the quirks without knowing about them! I must say, the transition to the E-M5 mkI was quite easy, so maybe the 510 is a good training tool!

Whereas I had been using the E-1, and I felt so let down with the E-510 in terms of everything but image stabilization. Note, I was an early adapter of the E-510, so I and others figured out its quirks.

My general take is the E-510 did not really support ISO 100. If you measured it, it was more like ISO 125-150. Later cameras stopped pretending that they had ISO 100, and just set the default bar to ISO 200. I felt the metering did not fully deal with the differences between the real ISO and the ISO they claimed to have. Eventually, I just set my ISO to 200, and I was happier. The noise was a little more, but the metering results were better.

In the E-510, they changed the default for ESP (matrix) metering to be more like ESP + center metering, and hid the change in a secondary menu. This meant when I took landscape shots, the sky was likely more burned out because it was using metering from the center of the photo, rather than the whole sky, which they previously had done. When I discovered this change, and reset matrix metering to use the setting that was what previous cameras used, I was happier. If it had been a first level menu, where I could choose between traditional ESP metering, and ESP + focus point metering, it would have been an easier transition.

I also felt the colors were a little too cool compared to other Olympus cameras, and I found myself in post processing have to adjust the levels that I usually didn't have to do with earlier cameras (E-1, C-2100UZ).

I haven't considered this; will have to look into it. I have basically given up on sunglasses if I have my camera out. I've become a squinter.

Unfortunately due to migraines, I pretty much have to wear polarized sunglasses all of the time during daylight hours. It has become a hot button topic with me.

This leads me to ask what you are using the other % of the time. Phone?

Other than a few cameras that I've either sold (E-510), returned (AIR A01), given away (SP-550UZ, etc.) or broke (Canon S1, etc.) I keep the various cameras I've aquired over the years. I go back and forth between buying cameras new and by waiting for the camera to come down in price, looking at refurbished or used sales. So, my main cameras currently are:

• Olympus E-m1 mark I (bought 3 years ago, still new, but Olympus had reduced the price in preparation for the E-m1 mark II);
• Olympus E-m10 mark II (bought refurbished last year);
• Panasonic G85 (bought new 2 years ago in preparation for a trip to Hawaii, where I wanted the OLED viewfinder). I tend to use it more for video than stills;
• Olympus Stylus-1 (bought new several years ago). I use this as one of my two pocket cameras, depending on what I think the setting will be;
• Panasonic LX-10 (bought new two years ago, but it had been out for awhile). This is the other main pocket camera. It is better at wide angle, while the Stylus-1 is better at telephoto. I also use this as the b-camera for video, shooting remotely;
• Panasonic FZ300 (bought used off of ebay). I tend to use this when I don't want to carry the camera bag, but rain might be a possibility (the FZ300 is splash proof), so it tends to be the camera I take to the zoo.
• Olympus E-1, E-3, E-5 (bought new). I don't shoot with them much, but I bring them out at least once a year, typically for fall. Up until recently, I prefered the E-5 with the 50-200mm + EC-14 lens for doing whale watches, combining it with the E-m1 mark I + 14-150mm mark II lens.
• Olympus C-2100UZ (bought at an Olympus fire sale in 2002). I don't shoot with it as much, and one of the last times I shot with it, the smartmedia cards were starting to fail, but I still have a sweet spot for it,

 

[sunny]

Wow! That is quite a collection! That gives me some great ideas about others that I might want to pick up. I have 3 children that are interested in photography, but don't need a fancy camera...yet. I still want to get something "good", though, that I could use too. Currently, they share my dad's old Fuji point and shoot. It has 14MP and isn't bad, so it's serving it's purpose right now. Both of my current cameras have been second hand, so I'm not opposed to going that route for my next purchase.

The 510 does shoot cool, but the E-M5 does for me as well, so I think I've just adapted and don't think about it much at this point. For some reason, I never even tried shooting below ISO 200 with the 510. Perhaps when I started, I was mainly shooting indoors?

I'm sorry about the migraines. I also have migraines, however sunlight only serves to make them worse in my case, but doesn't trigger them. Flickering lights are my nemesis.

 

[Michael Meissner]

Wow! That is quite a collection!

I forgot to mention:

• Olympus E-m5 mark I, bought refurbished, now it is my main steampunk camera (I do custom boxes with my various cameras inside meant to evoke images of earlier cameras);
• Olympus E-pm2, bought new, when I couldn't afford the E-m5, used to be my light weight steampunk camera, but the E-m5 mark I has mostly super-ceded it.

Yeah, flickering lights can be a problem also.

 

[ac12]

Wow! That is quite a collection! That gives me some great ideas about others that I might want to pick up. I have 3 children that are interested in photography, but don't need a fancy camera...yet. I still want to get something "good", though, that I could use too. Currently, they share my dad's old Fuji point and shoot. It has 14MP and isn't bad, so it's serving it's purpose right now. Both of my current cameras have been second hand, so I'm not opposed to going that route for my next purchase.

I like your stepped approach.

• A decent P&S or bridge camera, as a step up from the phone camera. To do what the phone camera can't do.
  
  • Although as time passes, the phone cameras are getting better and better.
• A decent interchangeable lens camera. Again to take them to the next step, of what a P&S or bridge camera can't do.

Going directly to the mirrorless or dSLR is intimidating to some/many teens.
The P&S or bridge camera is easy to use. Then when they hit the ceiling of what the P&S can do, they appreciate the next step up, better than going directly to an interchangeable lens camera. Many of my students use the dSLR in scene mode with the one lens, IOW they use the dSLR like a bridge camera.

The nice thing about the EM10 and EM5 is the small size/weight.
Some of the high school students I have are put off by the larger size and heavier weight of the dSLR and long lens.

• Many do NOT want to use the 70-200/2.8, because it is big and heavy. Many teenagers are not big adults, so this is a factor for them.
• Some want a smaller lighter camera (high end P&S), to more easily carry around school. And when I look at their HEAVY backpack of books, I understand why.

 

[sunny]

I like your stepped approach.

• A decent P&S or bridge camera, as a step up from the phone camera. To do what the phone camera can't do.
  • Although as time passes, the phone cameras are getting better and better.
• A decent interchangeable lens camera. Again to take them to the next step, of what a P&S or bridge camera can't do.

Going directly to the mirrorless or dSLR is intimidating to some/many teens.
The P&S or bridge camera is easy to use. Then when they hit the ceiling of what the P&S can do, they appreciate the next step up, better than going directly to an interchangeable lens camera. Many of my students use the dSLR in scene mode with the one lens, IOW they use the dSLR like a bridge camera.

The nice thing about the EM10 and EM5 is the small size/weight.
Some of the high school students I have are put off by the larger size and heavier weight of the dSLR and long lens.

• Many do NOT want to use the 70-200/2.8, because it is big and heavy. Many teenagers are not big adults, so this is a factor for them.
• Some want a smaller lighter camera (high end P&S), to more easily carry around school. And when I look at their HEAVY backpack of books, I understand why.

That is so interesting. I hadn't given it that much thought, but I think you are spot on and that is my approach. When I've let my middle child use my dslr, I have even set it up for him to use in a particular mode for the situation at hand because I want him to be successful. My eldest (15) borrows the E-510 on occasion can use it pretty well in A or S mode, but it is heavy to add to a backpack! I am the only one that even thinks of using my 75-300, but I love it! I am on the small side as an adult, but I lug that lens when the opportunity suits it. The phone cameras have become so good and our kids and teens have grown up using them---it's such a different world than the proverbial old days!

 

[mauve]

If that thread is still relevant, I just switched from an E-M5 mk II I had for a little over a year in favour of an E-M1 mk I. I did so because I was losing faith in my 5.2 ; little things, like the diopter adjustment had become slippery (had to stick it in place with a touch of nail varnish), or once this winter the camera refused to turn off until I removed the battery, or, last month, I had a batch of out of focus pictures because seemingly the camera couldn't AF while looking for space left on an almost full SD card. See, no show stoppers, but loss of confidence. Couldn't trust it 100% anymore. Add to this the rumours on the soon to be revealed E-M5 mk III and I decided to cash whatever it was still worth before it was too late. I did well because meanwhile I bought a pristine E-M1.1 with some lenses, and I managed to turn all this operation into a real bargain.

Anyway, after a couple of days with the E-M1, this is a much better body in the hand than the E-M5.2. The layout of the control is much, much better. The functions are almost identical, except the e-shutter doesn't go below 1:8th of a sec. and not over 3200 iso. There's no Hi-res mode, but after a couple of attempts with the 5.2, I had never used it again, too much caveats. The E-M1 feels a lot less like a jewel, and a lot more like a tool. But also, I was surprised at how close both the 1.1 and 5.2 are in terms of size and weight, in reality. I always use a grip, so fully equipped with the HLD-8G+HLD-6P, the 5.2 is actually heavier than the 1.1+HLD-7. And if it isn't that's how it feels as the grip is more difficult to handle, with sharper edges that don't fit as well in the fingers.

Finally, the 1.1 is now behind the 1.2 and 1.X, so it has pretty much hit the bottom of the price curve and won't lose much value over time, while I predict the resale value of the 5.2 will at least halve in the next quarter.

I highly recommend the 1.1, there's not much to lose at the latest f/w level compared to the 5.2, some gain (pdaf opens up the older 4:3rd range of lenses via adaptation), and it's a wiser investment than betting on a retiring horse.

OTH, Cheers,
M.

 

[sunny]

If that thread is still relevant, I just switched from an E-M5 mk II I had for a little over a year in favour of an E-M1 mk I. I did so because I was losing faith in my 5.2 ; little things, like the diopter adjustment had become slippery (had to stick it in place with a touch of nail varnish), or once this winter the camera refused to turn off until I removed the battery, or, last month, I had a batch of out of focus pictures because seemingly the camera couldn't AF while looking for space left on an almost full SD card. See, no show stoppers, but loss of confidence. Couldn't trust it 100% anymore. Add to this the rumours on the soon to be revealed E-M5 mk III and I decided to cash whatever it was still worth before it was too late. I did well because meanwhile I bought a pristine E-M1.1 with some lenses, and I managed to turn all this operation into a real bargain.

Anyway, after a couple of days with the E-M1, this is a much better body in the hand than the E-M5.2. The layout of the control is much, much better. The functions are almost identical, except the e-shutter doesn't go below 1:8th of a sec. and not over 3200 iso. There's no Hi-res mode, but after a couple of attempts with the 5.2, I had never used it again, too much caveats. The E-M1 feels a lot less like a jewel, and a lot more like a tool. But also, I was surprised at how close both the 1.1 and 5.2 are in terms of size and weight, in reality. I always use a grip, so fully equipped with the HLD-8G+HLD-6P, the 5.2 is actually heavier than the 1.1+HLD-7. And if it isn't that's how it feels as the grip is more difficult to handle, with sharper edges that don't fit as well in the fingers.

Finally, the 1.1 is now behind the 1.2 and 1.X, so it has pretty much hit the bottom of the price curve and won't lose much value over time, while I predict the resale value of the 5.2 will at least halve in the next quarter.

I highly recommend the 1.1, there's not much to lose at the latest f/w level compared to the 5.2, some gain (pdaf opens up the older 4:3rd range of lenses via adaptation), and it's a wiser investment than betting on a retiring horse.

OTH, Cheers,
M.

Thanks so much for your input. I haven't made the purchase yet, so very much still relevant. Your 5 mkII stories are concerning. And, yes, the pending E-M5 mkiii is definitely a consideration. I am on the look out for a deal like the one you found, so I'm working on my patience. I don't use a handgrip with my EM5 mki as I have fairly small hands, but I'm ok with the E510, so I don't think that would be an issue for me. What is pdaf? I don't have trouble, obviously, buying older models, but I do want to be as sure as I can that it will do what I want. All of the stories shared here certainly help! Thank you!

 

[Michael Meissner]

Thanks so much for your input. I haven't made the purchase yet, so very much still relevant. Your 5 mkII stories are concerning. And, yes, the pending E-M5 mkiii is definitely a consideration. I am on the look out for a deal like the one you found, so I'm working on my patience. I don't use a handgrip with my EM5 mki as I have fairly small hands, but I'm ok with the E510, so I don't think that would be an issue for me. What is pdaf? I don't have trouble, obviously, buying older models, but I do want to be as sure as I can that it will do what I want. All of the stories shared here certainly help! Thank you!

There are two main focusing mechanisms:

• Phase Detect Auto Focus (PDAF): This is the focusing mechanism primarily used in both film and digital single lens reflex cameras (like your E-510). In the SLR/DSLR, there is a mirror that either reflects light to the viewfinder or is moved away to have light hit the sensor (either film or the digital sensor). However there are small fixed areas in the mirror where it is half-silvered to let some light through in addition to bouncing most of the light up the viewfinder. Behind the mirror at those points are the sensors that look for changes in the phases of light looking for vertical or horizontal lines to determine whether something is in focus or not. IIRC, the E-510 only had 3 sensor points, and only the middle sensor was cross shaped (i.e. it could find straight lines in both directions), and the outer two sensors would only find straight lines in one direction.
• Contrast Detect Auto Focus (CDAF): This sensor generally uses the main sensor and it looks for changes in contrast as it moves the lens focus in and out to determine where the focus is. Now in theory you can use any point of the sensor to look for contrast, but conventionally many cameras have a grid of focus points you can choose. In terms of generations, your E-510 (and E-410, E-3) supported live view (i.e. mirror up, and using the main sensor), but it did not support doing CDAF. The next generation (E-420, E-520, E-620, and E-30) did support CDAF if you used the lenses designed for it, but it was extremely slow to focus using the CDAF. The last DSLR (E-5) improved the CDAF speed, but the PDAF speed was still much faster.
• With the exception of the E-m1 mark I/II and E-m1x, all of the Olympus micro 4/3rds cameras use only CDAF. The E-m1 mark I had PDAF sensors, and it used them for S-AF focusing of classic 4/3rds lenses with an adapter. But it didn't have cross shaped sensors, which meant it could often hunt. The E-m1 mark II and E-m1x improved on the PDAF sensors and made them more useful. In particular, I bought the E-m1 mark I because of the PDAF, and I later discovered in low contrast situations (particularly on a whale watch), where the camera would hunt for focus in one orientation. My E-5 on the other hand got focus with the same lens quickly.

 

[sunny]

There are two main focusing mechanisms:

• Phase Detect Auto Focus (PDAF): This is the focusing mechanism primarily used in both film and digital single lens reflex cameras (like your E-510). In the SLR/DSLR, there is a mirror that either reflects light to the viewfinder or is moved away to have light hit the sensor (either film or the digital sensor). However there are small fixed areas in the mirror where it is half-silvered to let some light through in addition to bouncing most of the light up the viewfinder. Behind the mirror at those points are the sensors that look for changes in the phases of light looking for vertical or horizontal lines to determine whether something is in focus or not. IIRC, the E-510 only had 3 sensor points, and only the middle sensor was cross shaped (i.e. it could find straight lines in both directions), and the outer two sensors would only find straight lines in one direction.
• Contrast Detect Auto Focus (CDAF): This sensor generally uses the main sensor and it looks for changes in contrast as it moves the lens focus in and out to determine where the focus is. Now in theory you can use any point of the sensor to look for contrast, but conventionally many cameras have a grid of focus points you can choose. In terms of generations, your E-510 (and E-410, E-3) supported live view (i.e. mirror up, and using the main sensor), but it did not support doing CDAF. The next generation (E-420, E-520, E-620, and E-30) did support CDAF if you used the lenses designed for it, but it was extremely slow to focus using the CDAF. The last DSLR (E-5) improved the CDAF speed, but the PDAF speed was still much faster.
• With the exception of the E-m1 mark I/II and E-m1x, all of the Olympus micro 4/3rds cameras use only CDAF. The E-m1 mark I had PDAF sensors, and it used them for S-AF focusing of classic 4/3rds lenses with an adapter. But it didn't have cross shaped sensors, which meant it could often hunt. The E-m1 mark II and E-m1x improved on the PDAF sensors and made them more useful. In particular, I bought the E-m1 mark I because of the PDAF, and I later discovered in low contrast situations (particularly on a whale watch), where the camera would hunt for focus in one orientation. My E-5 on the other hand got focus with the same lens quickly.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

 

[mauve]

Thanks so much for your input. I haven't made the purchase yet, so very much still relevant. Your 5 mkII stories are concerning. And, yes, the pending E-M5 mkiii is definitely a consideration. I am on the look out for a deal like the one you found, so I'm working on my patience. I don't use a handgrip with my EM5 mki as I have fairly small hands, but I'm ok with the E510, so I don't think that would be an issue for me. What is pdaf? I don't have trouble, obviously, buying older models, but I do want to be as sure as I can that it will do what I want. All of the stories shared here certainly help! Thank you!

If you want to look at the postmortem of my bargain : https://www.mu-43.com/threads/what-photography-related-item-did-you-buy-this-week.51684/post-1305235
The grip is optional on the 5 series until you start using pro level zooms. They make the camera very front heavy. But I agree until then you can do without. It's just a habit I have since my OM-1 day to add a winder of sort at the base.
The 5.2 make no mistake is a terrific camera, and I loved it dearly. But it's a little bit more frail than the 1, and I suspect the on/off lever might be a point of ingress for moisture as many people report the same story of the camera not shutting down in snowy or rainy conditions. As this glitch tends to amplify over time, I took no chance.

Cheers,
M.