E-M5 mk III released at US$1199

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I find this concern for a "plastic" body so silly. Yes, it may not be as heavy or dense as metal, but plastic is very, very durable. It's not like it is made from bakelite or something. If Olympus can make a durable weather sealed metal bodied camera, certainly they can do the same with a plastic bodied camera.
 
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why paint it like metal then?

A 20MP M4/3 sensor has 3.3 micrometer (um) pixels. The new 47MP 8K M4/3 sensor that Sony is making has 2.3um pixels.

BSI is a huge advantage when you get down to tiny smartphone sensors with 1.4um, 1.0um, or even 0.8um (!!!) pixels.
hey, I am Greek, doesn’t μ transcribe properly over there in this modern font age? :p

HUGE thanks for the informative posts!!!:drinks:

It might, but I dont have very good weather sealing :(
that’s an epic answer!!
 
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hey, I am Greek, doesn’t μ transcribe properly over there in this modern font age? :p
Nope, the 'micro' character is not common in English, so there's no easy way to type it on a US/English keyboard. Someone would have to know the ASCII code and how to get it, like the ° character. I just happen to remember the ASCII code (Hold ALT and type 0176 and you get °)
 

RS86

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BSI and organic sensors are completely different. Organic sensors are pretty close to fundamental materials science research, whereas BSI sensors are just an inventive spin on existing CMOS sensor technology.

Organic sensors replace the silicon photosensitive layer of the sensor with a new kind of organic film. The change in material allows for a significant increase in dynamic range, and allows them to re-organize the rest of the sensor design to introduce features like global shutter and electronic ND filtration without the same kinds of compromises necessary to do so on a conventional CMOS sensor. Organic sensors are not commercial yet, and I wouldn't expect to see one in a handheld camera for at least 5 years, if ever. They consume a large amount of power, and as a result, generate a large amount of heat, too. Panasonic is supposed to be commercializing their first organic sensor camera this year - it will be an 8K Super35 Production camera for big-budget TV, and will not cost a penny under $100,000.

BSI (back-side illumination) sensors, by contrast, take a regular silicon CMOS sensor and flip it around. The goal is to maximize the amount of light sensitive area by putting all the metal interconnecting circuitry that is used to readout the charge from the pixels onto the back of the sensor rather than the front (as it has traditionally been done). This has pros and cons, but it has large advantages in maximizing the the amount of light that can be absorbed by sensors with very small pixels. There is a minimum scale to the size of that interconnecting readout circuitry, and so on very tiny sensors, it starts to become a significant proportion of the total sensor area, blocking a lot of the light that would otherwise be captured.

Note that when I talk about "small pixels," I'm not talking about M4/3 sensors. M4/3 sensors have bigger pixels than 99% of all cameras sold, since every one of the 1.5 billion smartphones sold every year has at least 2 very tiny image sensors. A 20MP M4/3 sensor has 3.3 micrometer (um) pixels. The new 47MP 8K M4/3 sensor that Sony is making has 2.3um pixels.

BSI is a huge advantage when you get down to tiny smartphone sensors with 1.4um, 1.0um, or even 0.8um (!!!) pixels. On cameras with very large pixels, like APS-C, FF, and Medium Format, it's really difficult to point to an objective technical benefit in terms of light gathering for the BSI design. My guess is that Sony's reasoning for propogating BSI across their entire set of new sensors (26MP APS-C, 61MP FF, and 100MP MF) is to simplify and consolidate their manufacturing (which now mainly caters to smartphones) to improve economies of scale and streamline production in a market that is rapidly contracting for all large sensors. You'll notice that they aren't building an M4/3 sensor with the same architecture (that we know of) because it would only be 16.0MP, and it wouldn't have any real-world benefits over the existing, very good 20MP sensors that Panasonic and Olympus have already commissioned.

This is an old whitepaper from Aptina (they produced the sensors for the Nikon 1 series and pioneered dual-gain/dual-native ISO technology before being acquired) that explains BSI vs. FSI tech in much more detail.

http://www.eetrend.com/files-eetrend/newproduct/201101/100029156-17249-fsi-bsi-whitepaper.pdf

There has been so much R&D put into BSI sensors lately (because of smartphones) that they have gotten steadily better at minimizing the disadvantages presented, but the same is also true of FSI. (The sensor in the Panasonic S1R is FSI, and it is not necessarily as good in every way compared to Sony's sensors, but it holds up to its direct competition extremely well).
Thanks for great information, more than I hoped for! What I knew about organic sensor was that is has been rumoured for ages basically and never happened. And that it sounds more like a chip you could eat. :biggrin:

I thought my question might be related to E-M5 III, and was right. I'm pretty sure I will buy it at some point.

But your information got me even more assured that it will be the right buy. After that I'm all set for a long time (replacing my E-M10 II which I truly love). Because it seems that BSI sensor has no advantages here, and the organic sensor is still far away.

That organic sensor could later be something to keep M43 always relevant. Good to hear they are making a camera (albeit very very expensive one) based on it already.
 

pdk42

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Just caught up with the various early reviews of the III. I can see that as a vlog camera it ticks a lot of boxes with its great stabilisation and new improved PDAF system. However, I personally have zero interest in video. Nonetheless I wish Olympus success in this market and will keep my fingers crossed for it to succeed.

However, as a stills camera it does nothing for me, or I think for the system as a whole. I'd have bought one if any of the following had been featured:

- New sensor (i.e. new to the system, not just the E-M5 line)
- Hand held hi res and ND filter effects from the E-M1x
- Improved EVF (over other OMD cameras)

Sadly, we got none of them. So, we're left with a camera that has 90% of the features of the E-M1ii in a smaller body - but a body that's less well built and has much reduced battery life; and it comes with a price tag that's getting very close to that of its bigger brother, and the highly-capable G9. I really think it's too little, too late.
 
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Just caught up with the various early reviews of the III. I can see that as a vlog camera it ticks a lot of boxes with its great stabilisation and new improved PDAF system. However, I personally have zero interest in video
Yep, if I weren't into using my camera for video, I'd have been more than happy to stick with the MkII. But, since I DO use it for video, and frankly, I'm pleased with what I CAN get out of it, the additional capability, while not much, does resolve a huge issue - C-AF sucking. 4k is nice, but I may not really use it that much. We'll see.

If I only shot stills, I'd stick with the MkII until the IV came out, and would only step up if it had some significant improvements.
 

Michael Meissner

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However, as a stills camera it does nothing for me, or I think for the system as a whole. I'd have bought one if any of the following had been featured:

- New sensor (i.e. new to the system, not just the E-M5 line)
- Hand held hi res and ND filter effects from the E-M1x
- Improved EVF (over other OMD cameras)
It depends on what you want. For me, the EVF is improved, as I finally get an EVF I can use in both sunny weather (OLED) when I'm wearing polarized sunglasses and in rainy weather (splash resistance). I don't have to carry both an E-m10 mark II and an E-m1 mark I (like I do now, including a bag to protect the poor little E-m10 mark II from rain).

I must admit, I don't get all of the whining about no new features. Since the E-m1 came out, the E-m5 has always been the middle of the line body. If you want major new features, it likely will be in the E-m1 mark III (or E-m1x mark II) whenever that comes out. In general branding terms, the point of a mid-range body is to bring some (not all) of the features of the big sibling to the middle ground after the upper end has been around for awhile. Yeah, maybe it should have been a $900 body instead of $1,200.
 
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whumber

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I must admit, I don't get all of the whining about no new features. Since the E-m1 came out, the E-m5 has always been the middle of the line body. If you want new features, it likely will be in the E-m1 mark III (or E-m1x mark II) whenever that comes out. In general branding terms, the point of a mid-range body is to bring some (not all) of the features of the big sibling to the middle ground after the upper end has been around for awhile. Yeah, maybe it should have been a $900 body instead of $1,200.
If you look back to the E-M5ii release though while the camera was marketed as the mid-level option it actually introduced a number of new technologies (improved IBIS, UHS-II slot, HR mode, better video, faster sensor readout speed) that put it above the E-M1. The only real advantage the E-M1 retained was the larger body and OSPDAF.
 

Michael Meissner

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If you look back to the E-M5ii release though while the camera was marketed as the mid-level option it actually introduced a number of new technologies (improved IBIS, UHS-II slot, HR mode, better video, faster sensor readout speed) that put it above the E-M1. The only real advantage the E-M1 retained was the larger body and OSPDAF.
That's the nature of technology, and releasing things at separate times. Newer bodies will always get some improvements that have been made, but if you are expecting major improvements, you likely need to wait for the next high end body. So the middle/low end body will get some new features first. It depends on when things are ready.

Unfortunately, I tend to think in an era of declining markets that we just won't get the major improvements people seem to want. We will likely get small re-spins, but not major new things.

And note, people wanting a higher MP sensor over the current 20MP will likely notice diffraction becoming more apparent at smaller apertures more than the current bodies unless you only shoot with f/2.8 or larger apertures.
 

Pluttis

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If you look back to the E-M5ii release though while the camera was marketed as the mid-level option it actually introduced a number of new technologies (improved IBIS, UHS-II slot, HR mode, better video, faster sensor readout speed) that put it above the E-M1. The only real advantage the E-M1 retained was the larger body and OSPDAF.
How many times has this happened since the introduction of the EM5 and EM1 series? It was probably a coincidence that the mid-level where released and introduced many new technologies before the pro-level camera.
 

RS86

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Just caught up with the various early reviews of the III. I can see that as a vlog camera it ticks a lot of boxes with its great stabilisation and new improved PDAF system. However, I personally have zero interest in video. Nonetheless I wish Olympus success in this market and will keep my fingers crossed for it to succeed.

However, as a stills camera it does nothing for me, or I think for the system as a whole. I'd have bought one if any of the following had been featured:

- New sensor (i.e. new to the system, not just the E-M5 line)
- Hand held hi res and ND filter effects from the E-M1x
- Improved EVF (over other OMD cameras)

Sadly, we got none of them. So, we're left with a camera that has 90% of the features of the E-M1ii in a smaller body - but a body that's less well built and has much reduced battery life; and it comes with a price tag that's getting very close to that of its bigger brother, and the highly-capable G9. I really think it's too little, too late.
Isn't the PDAF and/or C-AF useful for stills also? Maybe of people? Have I missed something? Never used that so not sure, but would guess so from what I know.

Maybe it's not big upgrade for E-M5 II owners. And those with E-M1 II won't probably buy it unless having spare money.

As an E-M10 II owner it is very nice upgrade for me. Almost just what I wanted from it, although not sure about the fully articulating screen, but I have flippy screen in GX9.

1. 16MP -> 20MP
2. ISO performance. ISO seems to be on par with Fuji offerings in photonstophotos.
3. 4-stops IBIS -> 5.5-stops IBIS
4. PDAF
5. Better EVF
6. Weather-sealing
7. About same size & weight for my hands, bag and back
8. Better video
9. Same battery
10. Pro-capture etc.

Maybe I missed some. Anyway, Olympus doesn't lose anything if people rather buy E-M1 II, but such a bigger camera is not for my hands or bag. I will wait for price drop because I'm very happy with my current cameras for some while still.

I already have all the mid-range good quality lenses I want (maybe want some prime later if they come up with weather-sealed ~25mm 1.4-1.8 or something) so it's good to put that money into a well-rounded upgrade as a camera next.
 
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ijm5012

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That's the nature of technology, and releasing things at separate times. Newer bodies will always get some improvements that have been made, but if you are expecting major improvements, you likely need to wait for the next high end body. So the middle/low end body will get some new features first. It depends on when things are ready.
If it's the "nature of technology", then why are there no new features over the E-M1 II, which is 3 years old?

As @whumber pointed out, the E-M5 II was released ~1.5 years after the E-M1 I (Feb. 2015 vs. Oct 2013), and featured a number of improvements (I won't list them all out again). However, the E-M5 III was released 3 years after the E-M1 II (twice the delay), and yet introduced basically nothing new.

So it can't simply be the "nature of technology", otherwise we would've seen a slew of new features on the E-M5 III over the E-M1 II. But we didn't, we got a recycled E-M1 II in a smaller, cost-engineered body.
 
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I will wait for price drop because I'm very happy with my current cameras for some while still.
I cannot understand why they put off so many folks (me included) by announcing that a high price at the start of the models life with an expected who-knows-when corrective drop instead of going for a $200 less initial price that will be kept as is for much longer so we find it more tempting, we are not unhappy with the total features/price value point and we can plan our m43 future better.
The guy/gal who wants the EM1ii will not be tempted by the drawbacks of the EM5iii and the guy/gal who wants the small size of the EM5iii will not throw that much $$ to an obviously cheaper built body than the EM1ii.

I feel this is another marketing flop by Olympus like the one I consider they made with the PenF: That beauty lacked 1-2 features one would expect at its price point (mostly weather sealing) or it should have been sold starting at $200 less so many people coming from a previous PEN would be tempted to get it and no one would say “oh, it misses this or that”while being startled by its looks and feel. Instead they elected to sell it as a luxury item priced as that putting off so many prospective buyers that they missed the chance for a good seller model adding value to the whole brand if not the whole m43 system.

I feel there are the same 60 year old people taking the marketing decisions for the course Olympus takes and they are too inflexible to understand how the marketplace is rapidly changing: Instead of the EM5iii I may save up towards an iPhone Pro...
 

RS86

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I cannot understand why they put off so many folks (me included) by announcing that a high price at the start of the models life with an expected who-knows-when corrective drop instead of going for a $200 less initial price that will be kept as is for much longer so we find it more tempting, we are not unhappy with the total features/price value point and we can plan our m43 future better.
The guy/gal who wants the EM1ii will not be tempted by the drawbacks of the EM5iii and the guy/gal who wants the small size of the EM5iii will not throw that much $$ to an obviously cheaper built body than the EM1ii.

I feel this is another marketing flop by Olympus like the one I consider they made with the PenF: That beauty lacked 1-2 features one would expect at its price point (mostly weather sealing) or it should have been sold starting at $200 less so many people coming from a previous PEN would be tempted to get it and no one would say “oh, it misses this or that”while being startled by its looks and feel. Instead they elected to sell it as a luxury item priced as that putting off so many prospective buyers that they missed the chance for a good seller model adding value to the whole brand if not the whole m43 system.

I feel there are the same 60 year old people taking the marketing decisions for the course Olympus takes and they are too inflexible to understand how the marketplace is rapidly changing: Instead of the EM5iii I may save up towards an iPhone Pro...
Personally I will absolutely rather buy E-M5 III than E-M1 II for my small hands, lenses and camera bag selection. It's cheaper too. I would never buy E-M1 II size camera. My index finger is 7 cm long for example. I read someone say hockey helmets are plastic too, why don't they make them metal?

I haven't tested the camera, but from some reviews it seems the "plastic" design is very good. I think "plastic" is very misleading word. As if it's some Tupperware equipment. I don't mind it being similar weight to my E-M10 II.

Pricing it so, they can observe the demand first, and then lower it later. Similarly not many will sell their old gear starting with a low price, rather dropping it later.
 

RS86

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If it's the "nature of technology", then why are there no new features over the E-M1 II, which is 3 years old?

As @whumber pointed out, the E-M5 II was released ~1.5 years after the E-M1 I (Feb. 2015 vs. Oct 2013), and featured a number of improvements (I won't list them all out again). However, the E-M5 III was released 3 years after the E-M1 II (twice the delay), and yet introduced basically nothing new.

So it can't simply be the "nature of technology", otherwise we would've seen a slew of new features on the E-M5 III over the E-M1 II. But we didn't, we got a recycled E-M1 II in a smaller, cost-engineered body.
To me it seems E-M1 II is quite competitive still. You can look at charts in this link. I think E-M5 III is priced similarly as Fuji XT-3 and Sony A6500 in Finland.

"Signal to noise ratio
Again, the Fujifilm X-T3 is a clear winner here, despite having a higher pixel count than the rest. Surprisingly, the Olympus OM-D E-M1 II runs it a close second, even catching up at very high ISO settings. We’ve grown used to seeing very good results from these Micro Four Thirds sensors, despite their smaller size."

ych5ES7meXJN5SdLhxukBd-650-80.jpg
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"Dynamic range
Again, the X-T3 and the Olympus are very close, with the OM-D E-M1 II even sneaking slightly ahead at very high ISO settings. The Nikon D500 pretty much matches the pair of them up to ISO 800 but then falls away, while the two-year old Sony A6500 is starting to show its age in fourth place."

TvD7T8h38oK576nDR4jn8d-650-80.jpg
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https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-t3-review/4
 

ijm5012

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To me it seems E-M1 II is quite competitive still. You can look at charts in this link. I think E-M5 III is priced similarly as Fuji XT-3 and Sony A6500 in Finland.

"Signal to noise ratio
Again, the Fujifilm X-T3 is a clear winner here, despite having a higher pixel count than the rest. Surprisingly, the Olympus OM-D E-M1 II runs it a close second, even catching up at very high ISO settings. We’ve grown used to seeing very good results from these Micro Four Thirds sensors, despite their smaller size."

View attachment 783115

"Dynamic range
Again, the X-T3 and the Olympus are very close, with the OM-D E-M1 II even sneaking slightly ahead at very high ISO settings. The Nikon D500 pretty much matches the pair of them up to ISO 800 but then falls away, while the two-year old Sony A6500 is starting to show its age in fourth place."

View attachment 783116

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-t3-review/4
You're correct, the E-M1 II still is very competitive, which is why I said exactly that two weeks ago in this very thread.

But I think there are valid reasons for people to question the lack of technological improvement made over the E-M1 II, which was released 3 years ago.

The E-M5 II brought with it a number of improvements over the E-M1. We're not seeing that with the E-M5 III vs E-M1 II, which makes many people question if there's been a lack of innovation occurring within Olympus over the past few years.
 

whumber

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To me it seems E-M1 II is quite competitive still. You can look at charts in this link. I think E-M5 III is priced similarly as Fuji XT-3 and Sony A6500 in Finland.

"Signal to noise ratio
Again, the Fujifilm X-T3 is a clear winner here, despite having a higher pixel count than the rest. Surprisingly, the Olympus OM-D E-M1 II runs it a close second, even catching up at very high ISO settings. We’ve grown used to seeing very good results from these Micro Four Thirds sensors, despite their smaller size."
I seriously question the accuracy of this data as it doesn't seem to correspond to reality in any meaningful way.

Here's a look at a comparison of midtone noise at ISO 6400 between those four cameras.

e-m1ii_d500_xt3_a6500_midtone_noise.jpg
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As well as shadow noise as a proxy for dynamic range.

e-m1ii_d500_xt3_a6500_shadow_noise.jpg
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The E-M1ii is a solid performer, but you're going to be sorely disappointed if you go in expecting it to outperform a sensor like the one in the D500 or X-T3.
 

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