Double system shooting

Discussion in 'Filmmaking' started by Hudsonhites, May 20, 2013.

  1. Hudsonhites

    Hudsonhites Mu-43 Regular

    Jul 14, 2011

    Does anyone here record their video & audio separately then sync them up in post?

    What are some good practices to employ to make the final product as good as possible?

  2. speedandstyle

    speedandstyle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    I don't always but have in the past. The few things you need are a good audio recorder with a good mic. I have a Tascam DR100 which I use all the time for audio recording but use it some for video use too. Which mic to use is dictated by what and where you are shooting. I have used wireless lavaliers, handheld{wired and wireless} as well as wired shotguns. I use Sennheiser and Shure mostly but have also used Audio Technica and Azden.

    To sync them in post use an audio-visual cue. This could be a slate{clapper board} or even simply clapping your hands. The camera needs to clearly record the cue and the audio needs to record it. Then simply line the soundwave peak to the frame in the video where the sound is made. There are some iPad apps that you can use too{probably other tablets too}.

    Do make sure you have your settings right. Video cameras normally record audio at 48kHz and thus most editing software uses that rate too. However 44.1kHz is the standard for recording audio for a CD. Either convert in post or better yet record your audio at 48kHz. Trust me it will drive you nuts if you don't! The audio will get out of sync after 20 seconds or so and get worse as it goes along.
  3. Hudsonhites

    Hudsonhites Mu-43 Regular

    Jul 14, 2011
    Thanks speedandstyle

    I'm going to Georgia the country with a church choir group to listen and to sing along with Georgian singers in churches & monasteries. I'd like to be able to record some audio as well as video & stills when possible.

    I was planning on using the OMD & gf2 for the video they're good enough for my needs.

    For the audio I was considering one of these units

    DR-05 Portable Handheld Digital Audio Recorder


    H1 Ultra-Portable Digital Audio Recorder

    And adding a mic

    Would these recorders be sufficient? I should be able to place the recorder close to the singers
    What type of mic would work best

    I see you mentioned the iPad how is it for lite audio & video work? I was considering taking a laptop with me to put something together quick to share when over there I'd love to loose the weight & size of the laptop.

    • Like Like x 1
  4. speedandstyle

    speedandstyle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Never used a Zoom recorder so I can't say anything about them. I know a lot of the DSLR crowd uses them though. The Tascam is a decent one although I don't like using 1/8 inch jacks for mics. I prefer 1/4 inch or better yet XLR.

    However for what you are doing the built in mics might work best, especially since you seem to be on a tight budget. Good mics are expensive and cheap ones wouldn't be any better than the ones built in. You could move up a level or two in your recorder instead of buying mics.

    I think you would be better served by moving up to the Tascam DR-07. It is only about $20 more but allows you to configure the mics between A/B and X/Y stereo configurations. This would give you more adjustability for each situation. Better yet move up to the DR40 which has combo 1/4 inch/XLR inputs should you use mics.

    To record, set up the unit on a mic stand or tripod and point it towards the singers at a slight upward angle. For small groups set the mics to X/Y{crossing each other} and for large groups set to A/B{pointed out}. You may have to experiment with how far away to set it and the location may dictate it. Try to not boost your gain too high but it is better to get the sound level then and turn it down in post than trying to boost in post. Get a decent set of monitor headphones so you can hear what is going into the recorder.

    Make sure you record at 48kHz and use WAV{16 bit should be fine for what you are doing}. The files will be a little bit larger but much better quality than MP3. You can always convert them later if needed. Record sound in your cameras too, using the built-in mics. This can be useful for emergency syncing or to add a little more ambient sound.

    If you do want external mics the best cheaper mics I would recommend would be Shure SM57s. They are good for live recording. I would pair them up into a X/Y pattern for tighter pickup unless I wanted the audience sound too.

    Good luck
  5. Hudsonhites

    Hudsonhites Mu-43 Regular

    Jul 14, 2011
    Once again SpeedsndStyle thanks for your response you've been very helpful and I'm looking into your suggestions.

    Is there another forum or site that would be better for a information on this topic?

  6. jziegler

    jziegler Mu-43 Veteran

    Dec 15, 2012
    Salem County, New Jersey
    I have a zoom h4n that i use for audio recording, and it would work great for what you want. The built in Mics are of good quality. I haven't used it for synching to video, but many do. My wife is a classical singer and voice teacher, and we use it for recording recitals and audition tracks for her students, and it is very good for that. Fire what you describe, you probably want stereo mics not to close to the performer to include the wonderful ambience of the old churches.
    I have not used the cheaper zoom units, but if they are similar you should be good. The h4n had better connectivity and can record 4 channels, which you probably wouldn't use.

    Sent from my LG-LS840 using Tapatalk 2
  7. Jay86

    Jay86 Mu-43 Veteran

    Dec 26, 2012
    Or you could simplify and get a Rode VideoMic Pro Shotgun Mic on camera..... but make not it will not provide you with audio that the Zoom H4n or similar Tascam devices will provide.

    I personally wouldn't recommend the Zoom H1... The Zoom H4n is much better. If you cant swing that - then the H2n. Tascam also has similar competing devices just as good as an option FYI.

    "Speedand style's" advice is very sound FYI.... He/She gave you the right advice. I just figure I would through in the Rode VideoMic Pro option if you find yourself overwhelmed with this info for audio recording as not too long ago I was in the same position confused as heck, lol.

    If you do go the route of a Zoom or Tascam... try and through in a clap or a audio marker of some kind when audio recordings begin... it will make syncing soooo much easier in post.
  8. Ned

    Ned Mu-43 Legend

    Jul 18, 2010
    Alberta, Canada
    A mounted and synced external mic is so much more convenient and provides excellent sound which built-in mics are not capable of. I use that setup for most things.

    However, a lot of times you're shooting from a further vantage point than the audio is coming from (for example, shooting from the back of an auditorium to a stage at the front of the auditorium). You'll still pick up good sound from your intended target, but the biggest problem is that you may also pick up ambient sounds from the crowd or surroundings which are closer to you than your subject is. That's where I would resort to a handheld device, personally. I'm not fancy enough to have an assistant run a boom mic overhead or anything like that. :)

    The absolute smallest setup I use which actually produces surprisingly good sound, is the Olympus stereo condenser mic that's included with the SEMA-1 3.5mm mic adapter kit mounted with two high quality wind screens (one on each stereo mic end) on the included tie-clip extension, and hanging from a rubber band (usually hanging off my tripod or light bracket). That setup pretty much provides everything a rubber-mounted shotgun mic with wind muff can provide (besides being omni-directional of course), but in a form small enough to toss in a tiny pouch in your bag so you're never without a proper mic with your camera.
  9. Biro

    Biro Mu-43 All-Pro

    May 8, 2011
    Jersey Shore
    Ned, why are you listed as a new member when you have over five thousand posts?
  10. speedandstyle

    speedandstyle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    I am a he BTW.

    Anyway I am going to disagree with a camera mounted shotgun for one reason - pickup! A shotgun has a narrow pickup pattern and when it is mounted on the camera it will be pointed where ever the camera is. This will work fine if you mount the camera on a tripod and point it at the performers and leave it{or do slow pans to follow}. Otherwise the volume will go down every time the camera isn't pointed the right direction{and you pick up unwanted noise}.

    I have never used that mic and looking at it's specs it is not a real narrow pickup but it is a shotgun. Rode has a camera mounted mic that I personally would prefer, for live performances, over the VideoMic Pro and that is the Stereo VideoMic. It is an X/Y design with a polar pattern and no rear pickup. Another thing that many shotguns suffer from is rear pickup. When mounted on a camera they can pickup the camera noise or worse operator noise.

    RØDE Microphones - Stereo VideoMic
  11. Lobbamobba

    Lobbamobba Mu-43 Veteran

    May 15, 2013
    The h4n is quite good for the price, but if you plan to use it for other things as using a shotgun microphone or hooking it up to a sound boards line-out at concert its no good.
    If that might be the case in the future then the dr-100 or Olympus ls-100 is a better choice.
    I'm guessing you need it pretty soon, otherwise there is a new Zoom h6 coming in September that might win the dslr-video crowd back.

    No matter what, I wish you a happy trip.