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Consequence of no IBIS and a prime lens for low light indoors

Discussion in 'Panasonic Cameras' started by pyr2, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. pyr2

    pyr2 Mu-43 Rookie

    13
    Jan 15, 2013
    I have a Oly PM1 now. Before the purchase, though I wanted to consider some panasonics (for the newer 16mp sensor), and for superior video, the lack of IBIS heavily deterred me from going there since my primary use of the camera will be indoors (low light) with the Pana 20mm F/1.7 lens which has no lens stabilization.

    I have been always happy with the videos from the Panasonic products that I have owned. The video on my PM1 seems to leave a lot to be desired (too much motor noise when on C-AF, blur and jitter when on S-AF etc). I think my Samsung galaxy produces better videos. This makes me want to re-evaluate if I should move to the Panasonic camp (slightly drooling over the GX1).

    If I move to a Panasonic body (with my 20mm prime), would the absence of any kind of stabilization handicap me if most of my shots are indoors at say around 1/10 to 1/40 seconds? EDIT: Including shots of the kid (where I understand IS is not going to help). Interested in knowing when (at what speeds) IS begins to help for still subjects.

    Thanks a lot.
     
  2. whatisinthebag

    whatisinthebag Mu-43 Regular

    192
    Dec 23, 2011
    Central California
    Chris
    The panasonic 20mm pancake is nooooisy. This is not the camera's fault. If you adjust focus with the auto focus feature while filming there is no getting around the focus motor noise.

    You are likely experiencing the rolling shutter effects, as the EPM1 uses the same sensor/stabilization as my E-PL3. I simply could not use it for video without a tripod, the rolling shutter effect was terrible, turning the world to jello. It was only aggravated when using a short focal plane.

    E-PL3 with 45mm Oly video sample with rolling shutter I took: [ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp2LWKUzYjk]E-PL3 with 45mmf1.8 filming - YouTube[/ame]

    I'm happy to say that the OMD improved greatly for video.
    OMD video with 100-300mm Panasonic @ 300 mm:
    [ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8z_M6zuETk]Fisher Ground Squirrel - YouTube[/ame]

    I have not tested rolling shutter with any panasonic m4/3 cameras. I'm sure you will get plenty of feedback.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. pyr2

    pyr2 Mu-43 Rookie

    13
    Jan 15, 2013
    Yes the 20mm is like the truck picking up trash in the mornings. And it is not a camera issue. So that means if the 20mm is going to be the primary one on the camera, it does not make any/much difference be it a Pana/Oly, right?

    Yes that is precisely the effect I was referring to (called it jitter for lack of a better word in my head). This I can probably live with since I think it will happen only if you move/pan the camera a bit quickly.
     
  4. elavon

    elavon Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 1, 2012
    Tel Aviv Israel
    Ehud
    The 20mm focal length can be used down to 1/40 of a second without stabilization. There is the thumb role that you can shot hand held down to the 35mm focal range. If you get a more updated camera you will be able to shot with higher ISO. Using this ISO can reduce your shutter speed.
    IBIS with all respects can add 1 to 2 stops of stabilization.
    From your post I understand that you shot kids, IBIS does not "stabilize" them it is better to use higher shutter. This can be done using a faster lens or higher ISO. The 20mm is fast but your camera ISO handling is not the best, if you get a 16M sensor camera the ISO performance is increased by at list 2 stops.
    In your case you will shot at 1/40 to 1/160 with the same lens.
    Regarding focus noise this is a problem with the P20 and can be fixed by getting a video oriented lens or working manual focus like the pro do.
    In general fast panning is not recommended when shooting video especially in low light.
     
  5. pyr2

    pyr2 Mu-43 Rookie

    13
    Jan 15, 2013
    Thanks for the numbers. So is it fair to say that with the 20mm prime, I can go upto around 1/10 (2 stops) whereas only 1/40 with a Panasonic body.

    >> IBIS with all respects can add 1 to 2 stops of stabilization.
    Where is this information?

    While on this topic of "1 to 2 stops of stabilization", I have had this doubt for a while. I understand that 2 stop stabilization means it would let you shoot at 1/10 instead of 1/40. But where is the "anchor point" - I mean would it let me 1/5 from 1/20? The ratios are same but the actual time deltas or not.
     
  6. ~tc~

    ~tc~ Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Oct 22, 2010
    Houston, TX
    If your kids are moving, the ability to hold the camera steady, and image stabilization, will have little/no affect on the blur.

    You need a sufficient shutter speed to stop the motion, and that is only driven by the amount of light, the aperture, and ISO.

    I would highly recommend the book "Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Petersen - it does a much better job explaining these basic concepts than we can do on a forum.
     
  7. fransglans

    fransglans Mu-43 Top Veteran

    991
    Jun 12, 2012
    Sweden
    gus
    Ibis does ALOT to non motion pictures. I have done a lot of 1/13 shutterspeed indoors with great result (done by panasonic 20 on pen e-p3) But to stop motion (indoors) Im forced to iso 6400 to gain 1/160 shutterspeed and with the ibis the result were this:

    Panasonic 20, a lot of noise here. But anyway sharper than my old 5d with f/1.8 could bring
     
  8. pyr2

    pyr2 Mu-43 Rookie

    13
    Jan 15, 2013
    I do understand this. Let me rephrase my original question a bit by asking at what threshold the IBIS starts to matter (for still subjects).
     
  9. pyr2

    pyr2 Mu-43 Rookie

    13
    Jan 15, 2013
    At 1/160, with or without IBIS might be the same (I think). Might have been even better w/o IBIS, I don't know (I have read suggestions to turn it off).

    That image looks quite good for 6400. What camera was it?
     
  10. rnagoda

    rnagoda Mu-43 Veteran

    260
    Jun 12, 2012
    Tucson, AZ
    Robert
    Ignoring the technical details I'll just add here that I take indoor shots with a Panasonic GH2 and the 20/1.7 almost every day, without any issues. It's really just a matter of getting more intimate with the tools you have - being the camera, the lens, any existing light, etc.. Stabilization is nice, but it's far from necessary.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    Panasonic video is supposed to be better, but shut off the EPM1 IBIS and just don't use it. It causes more problems than it's worth, IMO (on the EPM1 especially. IBIS was much better on my EP1, EP3, and EPL2). Then, run tests with the IBIS off. If you still think Panny is better, try the GX1. But you might find the video quality is just fine with IBIS off, and given that's what the GX1 would give you anyway, you're not losing anything, and possibly saving some money.

    Also, as others have noted, the P20 is not exactly a movie lens. The PL25, of similar focal length, is much quieter, as is the 17/1.8, if you want to go wider. Even the P14 pancake is quieter than the P20.
     
  12. fransglans

    fransglans Mu-43 Top Veteran

    991
    Jun 12, 2012
    Sweden
    gus
    The pen ep3. I dont know about ibis or not. But hey, 1/160 to freeze a motion sounds good to me
     
  13. elavon

    elavon Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 1, 2012
    Tel Aviv Israel
    Ehud
    Regarding OIS/IBIS it is a matter of implementation and user ability. Some people can shot with the 20mm at 1/5 of a second other can do it with OMD IBIS only at 1/50. If your hand have the tripod quality then you do not need IBIS/OIS, people with shaky hands IBIS/OIS will never help. Most of us are in the mid level and rule of thumb say that for an average person IBIS/OIS helps in 1-2 stops.
    I for example when concentrate can handheld shot with the 20mm at 1/5 with nice results. But kids are not statues, so you need to increase speed, and if it is not sufficient then add light(flash).

    P1090391.
     
  14. Replytoken

    Replytoken Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 7, 2012
    Puget Sound
    Ken
    It is my understanding from reading posts written by members who are more familiar with shooting video, that with the exception of the OMD, you do not want to use IBIS when shooting video. It was recommended to me that I turn the IBIS off in my Oly bodies (or use a Panny body), and that I use Panny lenses with OIS. Also you want to use a shutter speed that is twice the fps rate whenever possible, as this will give you the smoothest looking video.

    Good luck,

    --Ken
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    That is correct. That is one reason why the OMD 5-axis IBIS is so ground-breaking. It can be used effectively in video. Without the OMD, it's best to have IBIS off and use a lens with IS.
     
  16. ~tc~

    ~tc~ Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Oct 22, 2010
    Houston, TX
    Note that in the pre-OMD bodies, the "IBIS" during video is digital stabilizing - it doesn't use the actual IBIS mechanism because of the heat generated. This is also why IBIS doesn't stabilize the viewfinder image on these cameras, and where Panny OIS had a huge advantage until the 5-axis IS in the OMD came along.
     
  17. meyerweb

    meyerweb Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Sep 5, 2011
    My 2 cents worth: If shooting a child, IS probably will make very little difference. Unless your child is unusually passive, subject motion will be at least as big a problem as camera shake, and no IS, whether in-body or in-lens, will help with subject motion. Fast lenses, and higher ISO and faster shutter speeds are what you need for shooting moving subjects in dim light.
     
  18. Balinus

    Balinus New to Mu-43

    6
    Jan 15, 2013
    I have a kid and I shoot a lot of photo indoor, with low light. I'm using now an adapted Minolta 50mm f/2 lens and while I can achieve some decent speed (~1/30s) at f/2 and ISO 800 the DOF is not just sufficient for "situation" photo where you need to have focus on more than 1 kid (kids playing with other kids, etc...). It does make nice portrait though. Sometimes I can get decent speed at f/2.8 but at the cost of higher ISO. I have a GH2 and I'm not satisfied with ISO higher than 1250-1600. As such, most of my photos around and over ISO 1600 are usually converted to black and white where grain is less of a problem.

    So, I'm investing in an external flash. I think that's the only choice for kid and low light situations, where you'll need speed closer to 1/125s and a higher aperture than 2-2.8.

    I'm only an amateur but I have 2 kids. :wink:
     
  19. Replytoken

    Replytoken Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 7, 2012
    Puget Sound
    Ken
    It's not the only choice. There is alwways duct tape! :biggrin:
    In all seriousness, there comes a point where flash is needed, but as the OP was asking about video, perhaps I should say that lighting is needed? If you are walls that are conducive to bouncing flash, learn to use them to your advantage. Bounced light can be quite nice if done properly.

    Good luck,

    --Ken

    P.S. If you do use duct tape to make your kids stop, try using WD-40 to get them moving again. :rofl:
     
  20. Balinus

    Balinus New to Mu-43

    6
    Jan 15, 2013
    :thumbup: :wink:

    I thought he was asking about photos. My bad.

    In my opinion, my indoor video doesn't need as much light as for photos. Slightly underesposed videos looks quite good on my HDTV and is quite enough for family videos. Most of my videos are shoot with my P14-140mm f/4, so that I can use the AF.

    Though, I've read that the AF of the P20 f/1.7 produce some noise. The OP will need to ask himself if that matters or not. For example, the noise produced inside a clip that consist of shooting your kid asleep might prove to be unpleasant.

    edit- As for shutter speed in a lo light situation I usually use Aperture priority and put the lens wide open. At least, you get the highest amount of light possible, even if the shutter speed might not be high enough.