can't handle dpreview anymore

T N Args

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I agree, it's clearly not at all the same...but can you imagine the FF shooters that would be kicking down the door if there was a compact, lightweight, affordable, weather-sealed, optically stellar 600mm/f8 available?...
If demand was that great, it would have been supplied long ago by now.... I think the absence of such a lens for so long speaks volumes as to its true popularity.
 

T N Args

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Sorry but this embodies the mixed message I see sometimes in this forum. It is okay to "kick up" against the larger formats, but comments about M43 limitations are "bullying." ...
There are two major groups of m43 users in m43 forums:
  • those who own m43 as their 'quality' system, and
  • those who own 35mm or bigger as their 'quality' system and m43 as their 'compact' system (or maybe just one camera and lens).
The latter group can create difficulty in m43 forums by constantly needing to justify their choice of 'quality' system by putting m43 in its place. The forum doesn't need that 'knowledge', the world doesn't need to hear it, it is the writers themselves who are satisfying their own need.
 

demiro

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IMO, the problem that exists at DPR, here, or anywhere else is when someone starts to make absolute statements about one format, sensor, lens, camera or whatever. m4/3s is good enough for many people. Some people insist on FF. Others go every which other way. No need to try to convince anyone that they are wrong about what is best for them. And of course some people are always on the troll (more so at DPR than most places). We all know to ignore them. If we don't we sort of get what we deserve.
 

Gary5

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There are two major groups of m43 users in m43 forums:
  • those who own m43 as their 'quality' system, and
  • those who own 35mm or bigger as their 'quality' system and m43 as their 'compact' system (or maybe just one camera and lens).
The latter group can create difficulty in m43 forums by constantly needing to justify their choice of 'quality' system by putting m43 in its place. The forum doesn't need that 'knowledge', the world doesn't need to hear it, it is the writers themselves who are satisfying their own need.
We have some of that dynamic here, but DPR also has links to threads about other systems all over the place. I think the sidebar alone is enough to cause all those 'should I sell my kit and switch to Fuji/Sony/Nikon/APS/FF' threads. I might be mistaken, but aren't those the threads that have all the pedantic arguments and name-calling?

...adding: I checked my post counts and it is 6 comments at DPR and 216 comments here. I guess that tells you my opinion.
 
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tkbslc

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Actually hasn't it just been the past 2-3 years that any DSLR could? Or I guess more specifically any rated as being able to since I'm sure many could in bright conditions.
I shot Canon for a long time and only the 1-series had f8.0 sensitive focus points. I think since before digital even. The rest would not even AF unless the lens was f5.6 or faster. (Sigma tricked it into working with their f6.3 lenses and it worked OK).
I don't know about other brands, but I do know that most SLR still have f5.6 minimum for AF sensitivity.
 

davidzvi

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There are two major groups of m43 users in m43 forums:
  • those who own m43 as their 'quality' system, and
  • those who own 35mm or bigger as their 'quality' system and m43 as their 'compact' system (or maybe just one camera and lens).
The latter group can create difficulty in m43 forums by constantly needing to justify their choice of 'quality' system by putting m43 in its place. The forum doesn't need that 'knowledge', the world doesn't need to hear it, it is the writers themselves who are satisfying their own need.
I guess it's lucky for me that I don't use the term "quality" to justify my use of FX for events and m4/3 for personal stuff. ;) I just find it works better and easier for me, nothing more.

As for equivalence between the two, it's something you need to understand to create the shot you want and not much more.
 
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davidzvi

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I shot Canon for a long time and only the 1-series had f8.0 sensitive focus points. I think since before digital even. The rest would not even AF unless the lens was f5.6 or faster. (Sigma tricked it into working with their f6.3 lenses and it worked OK).
I don't know about other brands, but I do know that most SLR still have f5.6 minimum for AF sensitivity.
Can't remember the specs back in the film bodies. For Nikon I remember reading the reviews of the latest DSLR bodies being rated to f8 and -3EV. The only comparisons I recall reading was Canon had more cross type points but Nikon worked better in lower light.
 

carlosfm

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Can't we just live with the limitations of the format of our choice, have fun and be creative with it?
Look at my cameras. One is film, 30 years old. Not much use, these days. But always pleasure to use. (!!!?)
The other two are digital and 6 to 7 years old.
 

bikerhiker

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Last I checked, I buy a pair of running shoes so I can run with it, swimwear so I can swim with it and a bicycle so I can enjoy riding a bike. But whenever I go into running forums and bicycling forums, you get the same aggressive argumentative people just like watching the Republican debate between the 3 stooges. A high school brawl between bullies, all arguing between barefoot running and running with shoes. And surprisingly, the public in general are accepting this type of behaviour. That's also why I no longer go into those forums and decided to limit my presence in DPReview and here.

You know. The old saying goes -- A picture is worth a thousand words. So start taking pictures that has a voice rather than chasing no noise, lots of DR and extreme bokeh to score technical points. We will all have our differences in opinion. That's how we are. The people who read these equivalence threads will make their own informed decisions.

You know that the equivalence discussion has a long history. It was debated during the transition from medium format to a smaller format known as 35mm when most consumers those days where using Twin Lens Reflex cameras. I remembered how all those defunct medium format makers were making the same fear mongering threats that going 35mm, you will loose great image quality, more grain and this and that. Looking back; the argument between full frame vs APS and m43 and iPhone cameras are very similar. Deja vu? Yes.. It's the same so I don't waste my time. My time is better spent taking photographs.

That's why I took up photography in the first place. I hope it's yours too.
 
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Turbofrog

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If demand was that great, it would have been supplied long ago by now.... I think the absence of such a lens for so long speaks volumes as to its true popularity.
As mentioned below by tkbslc, I'd forgotten that the reason that such a lens can't exist ultimately has nothing to do with demand, and a lot to do with the fundamental limitations of OVFs and PDAF sensors. DSLRs can't "gain up" with ISO to compensate, and so a DSLR would struggle to focus such a lens quickly, even if people liked the basic concept.
 

gr6825

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I'd forgotten that the reason that such a lens can't exist ultimately has nothing to do with demand, and a lot to do with the fundamental limitations of OVFs and PDAF sensors.
Honest question: can M43 AF with an f/8 lens? Also, the new high-end Nikon bodies can AF with f/8 lenses (how effective is another story).
 

Turbofrog

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Honest question: can M43 AF with an f/8 lens? Also, the new high-end Nikon bodies can AF with f/8 lenses (how effective is another story).
In theory, CDAF can focus with pretty much anything. How quickly is a different story, but it's based on what the sensor sees, so as long as it can increase the ISO to compensate, it will still function. We don't have any AF lenses that slow to test, though. CDAF is what's used by small-sensor point & shoot cameras, and some of them have abysmally small apertures at the long end of their superzoom. Like f7.1 or f8.4. So yeah.

But by all accounts, the new 100-400 focusses very quickly even with its max aperture of f6.3.
 

Nam-in-Sonoma

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I'm late into the discussion here but you have to separate the two entity of DPReview...the review side and the Forum.

The review is informative. The forum on the other side, you can take for what it worth. When I started with my Olympus E-300, I though I would get help when there was something I didn't understand and though that I would get better answer from someone by asking the question...to my surprise the first answer was "RTFM," of course that was the exception...later many people explained to me nicely...those same people became my virtual friends even now that none of us barely going back there. We keeps in touch when most of us move to Facebook.

Now when I go back, I just click on thread that have pictures on it, don't even bother to read about any argument about this or that.

Don't you find it's funny to see some of the active members don't even post any pictures in a photography forum? Very sad.
 
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