can't handle dpreview anymore

T N Args

Agent Photocateur
.... the "equivalence brigade", is completely out of hand. Equivalence is wielded like a club to beat people down, if you don't toe the FF is the best format in every regard line. I don't think the site owners openly condone it, but various members of the moderation, and administration staff definitely appear to turn a blind eye, when certain members go trolling, or harass non FF users.
I have had offline discussions with one of the µ4/3 mods there. He says the DPR Editor in Chief has instructed them that 'no valid topic can be prohibited' and that also applies to equivalence. So their hands are tied.

In fact, the mods have to admonish or warn frustrated µ4/3 members who try to tell the bullies to go away, on the basis that they are trying to prevent a valid topic from being discussed.

I think this has happened because the editor is valuing freedom of speech above unsociable behaviour, unless it is direct personal insults. I can understand this, but the end result is unenjoyable for many people who, like girls, just wanna have fun.
 

NCV

Mu-43 Veteran
I have had offline discussions with one of the µ4/3 mods there. He says the DPR Editor in Chief has instructed them that 'no valid topic can be prohibited' and that also applies to equivalence. So their hands are tied.

In fact, the mods have to admonish or warn frustrated µ4/3 members who try to tell the bullies to go away, on the basis that they are trying to prevent a valid topic from being discussed.

I think this has happened because the editor is valuing freedom of speech above unsociable behaviour, unless it is direct personal insults. I can understand this, but the end result is unenjoyable for many people who, like girls, just wanna have fun.

I am not the only one then that thinks that way.

The moderation has become very heavy handed and I have just got a 7 day ban for this reply which I thought was quite innocent: " the only infallible person I know lives in Rome" when I replied to one of the leading proponents of “Equivalence” who does not even own a M43 camera but trolls the forum frequently.

I get the sensation that a lot of bans are being handed out at the moment to try and “clean up” the forum.

It is becoming absolute madness on that forum and I have noticed many regular “names” have disappeared of late and thus the quality of the discussion has plummeted.
 

Egregius V

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Equivalence seems a valid enough subject for discussion - especially if one is used to "full frame" format cameras. (What a misnomer - "medium format" is bigger.) While I don't personally care about it, I want to try to respect those who do. So I'm appalled whenever someone drops an e-bomb into a discussion that's perfectly fine without it or bullies other people for engaging in discussions they don't care about. :shakehead: It's so unhelpful and goes against what a discussion forum is really all about.
 

NCV

Mu-43 Veteran
The equivalence problem on the DPR M43 forum is not the subject of equivalence, but the little band of bullies who at the slightest excuse wish to ram their views down everyone else’s throats. It is the arrogance of how they write their posts that gets me with a series of sarcastic putdowns for those who challenge their views.

The lead bully is a Physics teacher in “real life”. I sure feel sorry for his students if he acts in class in the same way he acts online.

But the thing that gets me is that one of the Mods seems to encourage this guy in particular whilst at best deleting posts opposing his views and I get the feeling that quite a few bans have been handed out recently.

Anyway this forum that I looked around before joining seems far more civil and relaxed.
 

DanS

Mu-43 All-Pro
I think this has happened because the editor is valuing freedom of speech above unsociable behaviour, unless it is direct personal insults.
Thats something I had a discussion with one of the mods about when I first joined because I had concerns. They key instigators, have worked around the rules by making everything a thinly veiled or backhanded insult.

So I'm appalled whenever someone drops an e-bomb into a discussion that's perfectly fine without it or bullies other people for engaging in discussions they don't care about. :shakehead: It's so unhelpful and goes against what a discussion forum is really all about.
Yep, this is exactly what I've seen. A thread starts about something not even remotely related to equivalence, and then one of a small sect of users contorts it into an equivalence debate, and then everything hits the fan.

The lead bully is a Physics teacher in “real life”. I sure feel sorry for his students if he acts in class in the same way he acts online.
I know exactly who you are talking about, and one of the mods told me he can get away with it, because "he has the support of some highly placed Admins at DPR."
 

carlosfm

Mu-43 Veteran
There will come a time when sensor equivalence/size will be measured against m4/3 or some other smaller size because "full frame" will be considered way too big to be practical and so last century...
Mine is bigger than yours doesn't work for all things.
 

Schwert

Mu-43 Regular
Let me just say I am glad this thread has not died...

When I could not stomach the idea of joining DPR I wondered if I was the only one who thought the general nastiness and seemingly intentional fight picking was normal behaviour on such sites.

I did learn a few things over there, but it was very tough work sorting through the junk to find a rare gem.

Nice to be here...
 

bigboysdad

Mu-43 All-Pro
Is someone going to identify this physics teacher then? (Even his forum name, that'll do). Would love to have a read of his posts.
 

gr6825

Mu-43 Veteran
There will come a time when sensor equivalence/size will be measured against m4/3 or some other smaller size because "full frame" will be considered way too big to be practical and so last century...
Sorry but this embodies the mixed message I see sometimes in this forum. It is okay to "kick up" against the larger formats, but comments about M43 limitations are "bullying." On the one hand, I get this is a M43 forum so there is going to be more M43 loving. At the same time, it just sounds to me like some people are more interested in validation than a robust discussion about pros and cons. I admit, I am often motivated to chime in when I see statements I consider to be overly broad or optimistic (e.g. 'there is really no practical advantage to a larger sensor'). Maybe this is part of what goes on at DPR? Anyway, my personal take: if you say your thing is the best, prepare for contrarians to come out of the woodwork and say "not so fast." More fun to have differences of opinion, I think :)
 

tkbslc

Super Moderator
Sorry but this embodies the mixed message I see sometimes in this forum. It is okay to "kick up" against the larger formats, but comments about M43 limitations are "bullying." On the one hand, I get this is a M43 forum so there is going to be more M43 loving. At the same time, it just sounds to me like some people are more interested in validation than a robust discussion about pros and cons. I admit, I am often motivated to chime in when I see statements I consider to be overly broad or optimistic (e.g. 'there is really no practical advantage to a larger sensor'). Maybe this is part of what goes on at DPR? Anyway, my personal take: if you say your thing is the best, prepare for contrarians to come out of the woodwork and say "not so fast." More fun to have differences of opinion, I think :)
I absolutely agree. I find it quite ridiculous to see people trying claim that a 300mm f4 on an E-M1 is directly comparable to a 600mm f4 on a Nikon D4. "Look I can get the same thing and it's 1/3 the size!" Those kind of statements beg for someone to comment on equivalence.

What I hate is when a m4/3 only discussion is invaded by people who have to point out the "true" FF equivalent and how you must be dumb to shoot such equivalently slow lenses. For example, someone is sharing some nice stuff from the 35-100 2.8 and someone has to pop in and say how it is overpriced for an f5.6 lens or some nonsense. Or every product announcement for m4/3 has more comments mentioning the crop factor than anything else.
 

Turbofrog

Mu-43 Legend
I absolutely agree. I find it quite ridiculous to see people trying claim that a 300mm f4 on an E-M1 is directly comparable to a 600mm f4 on a Nikon D4. "Look I can get the same thing and it's 1/3 the size!" Those kind of statements beg for someone to comment on equivalence.
I agree, it's clearly not at all the same...but can you imagine the FF shooters that would be kicking down the door if there was a compact, lightweight, affordable, weather-sealed, optically stellar 600mm/f8 available?

I use equivalence theory regularly and understand its implications (and also its significant practical limitations) but it's no surprise that people are bound to get on the defensive when pompous snobs browbeat them with half-facts all the time. The super annoying thing is that it's always a "have it both ways" conversation. On wide angles, a 17mm/f1.8 is a "crazy overpriced 35mm/f3.6" but with telephotos, a 300mm/f4 is only compared against a 300mm/f4 "because you can crop." It's garbage.

Not enough picture taking, too much abstracted measurebation. And I'm much too easily suckered into it...
 

Turbofrog

Mu-43 Legend
I must have a poor memory. I thought the O300 was priced above $2k ;)
Everything's relative, right? Especially affordability. What do the other 600mm primes on the market cost?

Heck, even the Sigma 150-600/f6.3 Sports costs $1800 and weighs 2.9 kg...
 

Gerard

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
In the current season of House of Cards, someone snaps a photo of a (I guess) 10x15 cm print using a smartphone and has this file bown up to bilboard size.
How is that for equivalence?

If you only spend 2 minutes on how sensors differ, you know this cannot be true. But nobody cares.....
 

Andym72

Mu-43 Veteran
When the E-M5 won camera of the year by public vote at the end of 2012, and all hell broke loose as the "we have big cameras, we know best" crowd piled into the m43 forum to insult the "petty" m43 community for "rigging the vote", I knew I couldn't use the forums on DPR any more, the constant attacking had got too much for me. Fortunately I'd already found this place.

Good god, from what some of you are saying, it's descended further, which I hardly though possible.

I go there just for the news and reviews now, and just avoid scrolling down to the comments section, which is equally contaminated with, frankly, jerks.

Tedolf was always good for a laugh though (or to laugh at, should I say...)
 

TonyG

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Sorry but this embodies the mixed message I see sometimes in this forum. It is okay to "kick up" against the larger formats, but comments about M43 limitations are "bullying." On the one hand, I get this is a M43 forum so there is going to be more M43 loving. At the same time, it just sounds to me like some people are more interested in validation than a robust discussion about pros and cons. I admit, I am often motivated to chime in when I see statements I consider to be overly broad or optimistic (e.g. 'there is really no practical advantage to a larger sensor'). Maybe this is part of what goes on at DPR? Anyway, my personal take: if you say your thing is the best, prepare for contrarians to come out of the woodwork and say "not so fast." More fun to have differences of opinion, I think :)
I enjoy a good discussion also but what is going on at DP isn't respectful.
 
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