Canon R5

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You mean the guy
This person's R5 shut down from overheating while just shooting images.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1657029/0

"I am reporting extreme overheating just shooting stills. I had the camera shut down and the Canon battery that came out was extremely hot. "

"I see a flame in the upper viewfinder. It was very hot out but a dozen different cameras used at that location in over 10 years and never had one shut down from heat. "

"I was shooting very little but locked on a stationary bird off and on for an hour using the viewfinder in high rate setting. "
This person's R5 shut down from overheating while just shooting images.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1657029/0

"I am reporting extreme overheating just shooting stills. I had the camera shut down and the Canon battery that came out was extremely hot. "

"I see a flame in the upper viewfinder. It was very hot out but a dozen different cameras used at that location in over 10 years and never had one shut down from heat. "

"I was shooting very little but locked on a stationary bird off and on for an hour using the viewfinder in high rate setting. "
As he explained, he was using one of a handful of older 90d batteries (he has 15 going back 6 years) and this one (the only one) had an issue. He will retest that one battery tomorrow. The rest seemed fine. Older model batterie with less than optimum charge capacity may heat faster, as others reported.

The same gent also posted his R5 images for that same session demonstrating the power of 45mp and cropping:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1656877/3#15301013
 

Reflector

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These are some awfully insane downsides, especially when it comes to dealing with still images...

This is kind of painful to look at given how close the R5 and R6 come to being very good mirrorless bodies only to instead have this insanely weird and specific major flaw of really poor thermal management combined with Sony style "gotchas" where the camera doesn't perform to absolute spec.
 
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These are some awfully insane downsides, especially when it comes to dealing with still images...

This is kind of painful to look at given how close the R5 and R6 come to being very good mirrorless bodies only to instead have this insanely weird and specific major flaw of really poor thermal management combined with Sony style "gotchas" where the camera doesn't perform to absolute spec.
The stills overheating is exactly the same warning their DSLRs have had since Live View was put into cameras:

“Even my ancient 5DSR has two internal temperature warning icons for stills . The manual says:

"If Live View shooting is used continuously for a prolonged period, the camera’s internal temperature may rise, and image quality may deteriorate. Always exit Live View shooting when you are not shooting. If you shoot a long exposure while the camera’s internal temperature is high, image quality may deteriorate. Exit Live View shooting and wait a few minutes before shooting again.

White and Red Internal Temperature Warning Icons: If the camera’s internal temperature increases due to prolonged Live View shooting or under a high ambient temperature, a white or red icon will appear. The white icon indicates that the image quality of still photos will deteriorate. It is recommended that you temporarily exit Live View shooting and allow the camera to cool down before shooting again. The red icon indicates that the Live View shooting will soon stop automatically. If this happens, you will not be able to shoot again until the camera’s internal temperature decreases. Exit the Live View shooting or turn off the power and let the camera rest for a while.””
 

Reflector

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The stills overheating is exactly the same warning their DSLRs have had since Live View was put into cameras:
Except it seems to actually apply to the R5 in stills mode given how much it warms up which is extremely disappointing since it should be optimized for usage as a mirrorless camera.
 
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Except it seems to actually apply to the R5 in stills mode given how much it warms up which is extremely disappointing since it should be optimized for usage as a mirrorless camera.
Pros on FredMiranda experienced the exact same stills overheating on their DSLRs. The R5 appears to be no worse.

So far I've read only one person with an old, questionable battery experiencing any stills overheating.
 

Lcrunyon

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This is why I shake my head at the full frame wars. They’re still trying to win a race that for most of us was over a long time ago, and killing themselves to do it.

It’s an impressive camera and perhaps it is a sign of the future, but it’s not quite ready yet for all that it was trying to do. Frankly, it was trying to do too much. Given the processing power and end use for the vast majority of us, only a highly demanding professional would actually find need for such specs; but all that spec comes with a price and for a professional, if there is even a chance that it will fail after prolonged use, then it can’t be trusted and isn‘t good enough.
 

Stanga

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In their haste to tempt m43 users, Canon and Nikon have rushed out their mirrorless systems. Panasonic and Olympus can take years with their R&D before we see an actual working camera. But Sony, Canon, and Nikon seem to have a new model every six months. That is introducing reliability issues in equal speed.
 
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Overheating has been a concern since Live View in DSLRs. My 2010 Nikon D90 had a 5 minute recording limit in 720p because of the heat issues caused by both processing the codec and Live View. Every Nikon and Canon has had FPS heat warnings, with Live View activated for DSLRs and no different for mirrorless which adds further hear from EVFs and IBIS. Sony a6300 and A7iii and evening their old SLT had heat issues. All pro cine cameras come with heat management protocols. The difference between RAW 20FPS stills and an efficient 24FPS video codec is nil for heat management. It’s not so much a stills vs video thing, either, though my D90 maxes out at 4.5FPS, to take you back. The codec was MJPEG.

Smaller sensors using efficient codecs don’t generate as much heat. So the GH5 is the workhorse champion here. I do a lot of video and experience no heat issues with the EM1X. The 43 aspect and the smaller sensor are excellent for video.

The Canon R5 pushes massive 8k data in a small body using lossless codecs if desired. Of course it would have heat issues. All 4k+ cine cameras potentially have heat issues and the entire industry is aware of those limitations. It has the exact same Ux for high-FPS heat warnings as it’s predecessor DSLRs. At least Canon published a full spec sheet with codec and time data, something Sony hasn’t done. The new Sony @ 12MP overheats, too. That’s the penalty for the format in a DSLR-type body as opposed to a true cine body like the passively cooled, no EVF BMPCC 6k. Back in May when Canon prereleased some specs there was no ProRes or Avid DNx out which signalled to the video pros that there would be both heat and time limits to recording, given such a small body. The best you can do is transcode to ProRes via Atomos. So months ago no one was under any delusions the R5 was going to be some all-in, 8k RAW beast for recording an hour of the ballet recital at 47mp spurring massive suburban sales of 8k televisions.

Is the heat manageable? Yes. This appears to be tested and categorized and published for the R5, as with any cine cam. It involves incremental, short duration shooting. For extreme resolution or FPS that’s normal anyway. The only overheating occurs when shooting 8k or 4kHQ in any codec. So, those who want to shoot 10-bit 4:2:2 up to 29.97fps continuously can do so with no shutdown triggers, as long as it’s not 4K HQ mode. For such a high resolution camera, 4k normal in Log is excellent. That’s huge detail at high-ISO with affordable, editable files for Joe MacBook Pro. There is no Canon FU or engineering mess in that respect. That’s an excellent spec, and can also be recorded externally straight.

The R5 is back-ordered already, with Covid delays depending on where you live.
 
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Imagine launching a new electric car that would give the fastest, smoothest, most comfortable, quietest, best in its class, better-than-every-single-competing-car's ride ever, but only as far as the grocery store?
10-bit 4:2:2 up to 29.97fps continuously with the R5 high-ISO and AF capabilities at 47mp isn’t the grocery store. That spec has unlimited mileage until card is full. That’s the money spec.

To use your analogy, it has all that fastest and smoothest, but it also has a turbocharger, that will overheat and cause the engine to shutdown if used for extended periods, turning your quiet ride into a time-limited dragster. Exciting, but dangerous. Comes with cautions and warnings.

Is there a competing compact 8k?
 

RichardC

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10-bit 4:2:2 up to 29.97fps continuously with the R5 high-ISO and AF capabilities at 47mp isn’t the grocery store. That spec has unlimited mileage until card is full. That’s the money spec.

To use your analogy, it has all that fastest and smoothest, but it also has a turbocharger, that will overheat and cause the engine to shutdown if used for extended periods, turning your quiet ride into a time-limited dragster. Exciting, but dangerous. Comes with cautions and warnings.

Is there a competing compact 8k?
From Canon's website:

"Professional mirrorless redefined
Whatever you shoot, however you shoot it, the EOS R5 will let you be creative in ways you simply couldn’t before. Capture sensational 45 megapixel photos at up to 20 frames per second*, or cinematic 12 bit 8K RAW video using the entire width of the camera’s sensor."

"Full Frame internal 8K RAW video
24/25/30p 12-bit RAW video that looks as good as real life"

They are not marketing 8K as an 'occasional use turbo'.

Only at the very foot of the page, as a numbered annotation, do they happen to mention this :

"If the cameras internal temperature becomes too high the maximum recording time will be reduced"

According to hands on reviews, perhaps they ought to replace "if" with "When.........inevitably".
 
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From Canon's website:

"Professional mirrorless redefined
Whatever you shoot, however you shoot it, the EOS R5 will let you be creative in ways you simply couldn’t before. Capture sensational 45 megapixel photos at up to 20 frames per second*, or cinematic 12 bit 8K RAW video using the entire width of the camera’s sensor."

"Full Frame internal 8K RAW video
24/25/30p 12-bit RAW video that looks as good as real life"

They are not marketing 8K as an 'occasional use turbo'.

Only at the very foot of the page, as a numbered annotation, do they happen to mention this :

"If the cameras internal temperature becomes too high the maximum recording time will be reduced"

According to hands on reviews, perhaps they ought to replace "if" with "When.........inevitably".
All marketing uses upper limit spec.
Apparently my Olympus IBIS is always 7.5 stops, except for the petite asterisk that only with certain lenses to I get the full 7.5, and then with the not readily available fact to turn it off with tripod, and it’s unnecessary when shooting above 1/2000 of a second, etc.
All sorts of limitations and restrictions we find out later.

20 minutes of 8k video is substantial, and the intended market for a $3k+ camera is professionals who not only should know better, but in video and photo ARE a major part of the marketing industry.
The big asterisk is the $12k workstation for editing 8k. Canon don’t make so Canon don’t tell. Some orthodontist will find out soon enough.
 

John King

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All marketing uses upper limit spec.
Apparently my Olympus IBIS is always 7.5 stops, except for the petite asterisk that only with certain lenses to I get the full 7.5, and then with the not readily available fact to turn it off with tripod, and it’s unnecessary when shooting above 1/2000 of a second, etc.
All sorts of limitations and restrictions we find out later.

20 minutes of 8k video is substantial, and the intended market for a $3k+ camera is professionals who not only should know better, but in video and photo ARE a major part of the marketing industry.
The big asterisk is the $12k workstation for editing 8k. Canon don’t make so Canon don’t tell. Some orthodontist will find out soon enough.
The camera overheats badly in normal use, and then takes an inordinately long time to recover.

AND I could use LiveView all night with my dSLR without it overheating, so apparently only a problem with some dSLRs, but not with my E-510 or E-30.

Your hyperbolic statements are interesting ...

So. The Canon overheats badly, in a short time.
Does this not look like a serious design flaw to you?
 

Reflector

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Apparently my Olympus IBIS is always 7.5 stops, except for the petite asterisk that only with certain lenses to I get the full 7.5, and then with the not readily available fact to turn it off with tripod, and it’s unnecessary when shooting above 1/2000 of a second, etc.
Have you tested the actual stops? You'll find Olympus tends to hit single digit second exposures and depending on your focal length, that's about 5-7.5 stops. I've hit 7 stops on the E-M1II using the 12-100 but it isn't necessarily consistent.

Not to mention I've actually found that the E-M1II's stabilization helps if there's a little movement on the tripod. I've watched it engage and disengage from stuff like tapping the tripod leg or any slight "tremor" caused by less than solid ground being disturbed by a car/someone walking by. Regardless, you'd be likely in seeing a minimum of 4-6 stops in practical usage.

Also I can't see how 1/2000s is relevant to IBIS. It helps with "viewfinder stabilization" like any form of stabilization (=lens) when dealing with moving subjects.

The R6 seems to have hit 4.5 stops with the combined RF24-105 + body stabilization. Canon's claim was 8 stops with that combo... That's a bit far from Olympus' claims for the CIPA number.
 

Lcrunyon

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Who has committed the foul: the company that advertises completely false specs, or the one that advertises correct specs and clearly explains further details with a footnote?
 
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hoodlum

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Another report from a photographer that uses a 5D and 1D in these sames conditions and has never had his cameras shut down like the R5 did yesterday for him.

https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/threads/gerald-undone-completes-exhaustive-record-time-testing-on-the-canon-eos-r5-and-canon-eos-r6.38979/page-4#post-851397

"I got to use an r5 today out at a Motocross event and well it turned off from only doing photos. This was using the ef to rf adapter and a 200mm f2. This was used for over a time period of 2.5-3 hrs and it was 86 degrees out. I’m glad that I didn’t buy it and needless to say my friend who did is pretty disappointed. I love 1d bodies"

"Yup. Only stills. I think we use two or three batteries.Full disclosure I leaned on the shutter a lot I fired off a few thousand rounds and which by the way I must say that tracking is pretty incredible. Auto shut off was at 1 min. Yes I know it was warm out but doing photos then looking at them and doing photos and looking at them you wouldn’t think that a camera would get so warm that it would shut off from stills."

"I had just got done shooting a burst and looked at the photos that were captured and the red thermometer was flashing and I proceeded to shoot more then the camera stopped. It took somewhere between 10-15 min to start working again. After this tho I quit using it"
 

Reflector

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2-3 hours at 86F with a thousand shots seems more reasonable and reminds me of the guy who shot marathons with the E-M1II and blew through thousand and thousands of shots (with what I assume is the electronic shutter) before finally getting it to thermally shut down. It is the other ones that seem to get toasty from a hour of on and off shooting that makes me wonder what's going on with the R5 and thermal management.

This is not to mention Gerald Undone's testing shows the R5 has a slow recovery time to cool off as mentioned on Canonrumors (hours!). I have to wonder if Canon decided that they're going to use thermal inertia rather than direct body heatsinking which leads to it being incredibly toasty from long shots, rather than being heated externally. That or it sounds like something on the camera is designed as the thermal shutdown limit and it just takes forever to cool off, or maybe Canon did something silly on the firmware side and set the temperature limits too conservatively.
 

ac12

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Decent passive heat transfer requires metal to air surface. The more the better. Though I doubt that we will ever see a finned heatsink/heat transfer on a camera.
Cover the metal case with a rubber or leather grip, and you lower the efficiency of the metal to dissipate heat.
How much exposed metal is there on a camera body, where you could dissipate internal heat?
If you heatsink onto the frame, then the frame could transfer the heat to the top and bottom plates, and dissipate from there. Though I would not want the top right plate to get hot, as that is where my primary controls and shutter button are.

This is similar to the issue many years ago with shoe flashes and dSLRs.
Because it was so easy to shoot a LOT, and fast, the early models were burning out, and later models going into thermal shut down.
When shooting a lot, the electrical circuit inside was generating a lot of heat. And since the heat was trapped inside the plastic case, it would get hotter and hotter, until it failed/shut down. Plastic is a thermal insulator, IOW a poor conductor of heat.

At a certain point, we may have to go to forced cooling. IOW a fan.
The early PCs did not have a fan on the CPU, now most of them do. BIG heat sinks and fans.​
And similar with the video cards, from no fan to fans.​
And with forced air cooling, you lose your weather sealing.
 

AmritR

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......

At a certain point, we may have to go to forced cooling. IOW a fan.
The early PCs did not have a fan on the CPU, now most of them do. BIG heat sinks and fans.​
And similar with the video cards, from no fan to fans.​
And with forced air cooling, you lose your weather sealing.
addition:

Panasonic S1H

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And that will indeed impact size, weight and weather sealing. Likely not an issue for pro’s.
 
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