Canon R5

Reflector

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I have to wonder if they actually have done thermal analysis (like using a FLIR to look at the R5) to figure out if what looks like the back of the LCD is used to dump the heat out of the camera body. If it is fairly heat insulating as a design that little heatsink+fan won't help that much since it won't be able to move any of the internal heat out.
 

John King

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Of course, the cooling system will have negative size and mass, adding nothing in either case.

Probably this would be more the case :



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Only 20 inches square ... ;).
 

BDR-529

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I have to wonder if they actually have done thermal analysis (like using a FLIR to look at the R5) to figure out if what looks like the back of the LCD is used to dump the heat out of the camera body. If it is fairly heat insulating as a design that little heatsink+fan won't help that much since it won't be able to move any of the internal heat out.
This is exactly why I said that Canon test engineers never signed R5 off for production. Management must have simply walked over them in a rush to release mirrorless FF cameras which have a "killer" feature nobody else can match. In this case it apparently kills just the R5 GPU instead of competition.

If Canon R5 has a chipset that is capable of recording 8k video for 5 minutes, then it's also capable of recording 8k for 5 of 15 hours straight if only thermal management is designed properly. And thermal management is definitely not a rocket science.

GPU designers tell you precisely what kind of heatsink is required to keep the GPU running at even 100% load forever without any thermal limitations. It was a mangement decision to intentionally launch R5 with insufficient heat transfer. They just decided that it's more important to save few grams of weight and $10 of production cost.
 
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Where does this even go on the camera? :S
Just searched for that IG account. Unless the plastic used on R5 beneath the flippy screen is porus how would it cool the innards o_O
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Reflector

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Unless the plastic used on R5 beneath the flippy screen is porus how would it cool the innard
I think those guys believe that the R5 is like the E-M1II/III's thermal solution where it is heatsinked to the back. Also below is the E-M1X which you can see the huge beefy heatsinking section and an E-M10 which is plastic bodied and doesn't have the chassis heatsink or at least anything beyond that copper plate from what I can tell. Also added an EOS R as well, for reference since I was able to find an image of one.
17349980_1558315024208510_3465279941913412944_o-700x716.jpg
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BDR-529

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Just searched for that IG account. Unless the plastic used on R5 beneath the flippy screen is porus how would it cool the innards o_O
Plastic is the problem here. Even when modern ILC:s use chunky magnesium bodies which would dissipate heat nicely assuming that latent heat is first transferred from the chipset to chassis, the whole thing is wrapped inside a tight plastic cover which is a pretty good insulator.

Old ILC:s up to 1980's used heavy bare metal bodies with perhaps a small roughened plastic patch on the grip. They would have done a great job of transfering the heat from a GPU that is capable of encoding 8k H.265 on real time.

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that even camera chipsets still generate so much heat under such load that full metal bodies would pretty soon become so hot that nobody could hold them without a pair of complimentary "CANON R5"-branded oven mittens. So it's better to cover bodies with plastic which kills the chipset instead of actually scalding paying customers.

Without some kind of active heat transfer i.e. fan there might just be too much heat to be transferred before next generation processor technology once again doubles the performance and cuts power requirement in half. I'm still interested to see what Panasonic will do with GH6. They know better than to launch a camera with a totally useless video feature as their key selling point.
 
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Reflector

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Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that even camera chipsets still generate so much heat under such load that full metal bodies would pretty soon become so hot that nobody could hold them without a pair of complimentary "CANON R5"-banded oven mittens. So it's better to cover bodies with plastic which kill the chipset instead of actually scalding users.
For reference, the A7RII used to hit around surface temperatures of 100F before shutdown and 110F after the firmware allowed it to go for longer as for the purposes of video recording. Some Sony did creative things like putting on fans pointed at the back, adding a heatsink to the back or outright pulled the LCD out to prolong the recording capabilities:
coolermounted-800x591.jpg
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A6000 heatsink small image.jpg
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Canon may have gone the other direction and significantly insulated some parts of the camera so the user doesn't feel uncomfortable from holding the camera and this might be the cause for overheating. That bag of ice over the camera image and the accompanying article is why I posted that in the first place. It seems that the body doesn't cool all that well in the case of the R6 and in the case of the R5 I have to scratch my head a bit given it is a magnesium chassis.
 

Reflector

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For anyone interested in video, it seems 4k vs 4K oversampled from the sensor does produce a visible quality difference: (Alternatively see 2 of the 4 shots below to see what happens between 4k vs 4k oversampled)
It kind of reminds me of my experience with the RP where when software image stabilization is enabled the video quality took a steep nosedive.

Also it definitely looks like the in camera chipset for encoding generates most of the heat, but if full sensor readout is used it also seems to be a significant contributor of heat. For the video guys at least they can just use an Atmos or whatever to do recording externally on the R5 and get over a hour of recording.
Heat generated by processor.jpg
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I'm still waiting to hear about more test results from the R6 but this is kind of disappointing to know that liveview and a few photos will make the R5 get pretty warm internally.
 

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Reflector

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From a Canon representative's mouth which isn't nice to hear about the thermals but it seems a bit out here since camera on means electrical consumption which means it has to be putting a little bit of manageable heat out.

...but it sounds like liveview is generating a significant amount of warmth or maybe the processors just run a bit hot or maybe the thermal management is designed less for dissipation?

All speculation on my part, I really hope to see more solid information out with serious testing.
 

demiro

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Remember the olden days when you had one camera for shooting stills, and another purpose-built affair for shooting video?
That's funny, sort of. I remember badly wanting a good point and shoot cam with 1080P video. That seems like a life time ago. In all honesty, for my very modest use case, I miss my Panasonic video camera. Shot wonderful footage with something like 50x zoom. No bigger than a mid-sized lens.
 

pdk42

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This should do the trick:

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This is exactly why I said that Canon test engineers never signed R5 off for production. Management must have simply walked over them in a rush to release mirrorless FF cameras which have a "killer" feature nobody else can match. In this case it apparently kills just the R5 GPU instead of competition.

If Canon R5 has a chipset that is capable of recording 8k video for 5 minutes, then it's also capable of recording 8k for 5 of 15 hours straight if only thermal management is designed properly. And thermal management is definitely not a rocket science.

GPU designers tell you precisely what kind of heatsink is required to keep the GPU running at even 100% load forever without any thermal limitations. It was a mangement decision to intentionally launch R5 with insufficient heat transfer. They just decided that it's more important to save few grams of weight and $10 of production cost.
We already know the answer. It’s the Panasonic S1H. Using a non-crop, OS4k or 8k using existing uncompressed codecs is going to require a fan equivalent to the S1H at a minimum, and a larger body. Even a RED at 6k has heating issues contributing their unreliability.

Canon prioritized compactness and weather sealing, incompatible with active cooling. It’s also got AF and IBIS going at the same time, so compromises for those expecting active electronic systems as opposed to manual focus and a rig or gimbal. And there was no way Canon was going to cut into their Cine sales, those guys were in the room. Nor were they going to compromise the compactness and weather sealing going down the Panasonic S1H route given this falls solidly into the hybrid product category, closer to a stills cam than cinema cam. Canon’s recording limit sheet is actually the most open anyone in the mirrorless camp has been.

And yes, Canon Cine discussions months ago were taking up either active cooling, codec limits, or timeout heat management strategies given that the A7 and a6000 and REDs and even C300s all have to manage heat and have had similar problems. Arris and Venice do, too, but they use massive sinks and active fans. There is no minimal, passive sink engineering that can dissipate heat at these recording densities, not fully in-camera.

It’s why some filmmakers still use film!
 

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