Auto ISO and shutter speed priority

Danny_SWE

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Hi,

I have found one odd thing when using my new gear E-M5.3 and Oly 12-45/4 lens on a trip last weekend. Now when we have short days it requires more light.

Well. The camera approaches this by increasing the ISO so that shutter speed keeps minimum. (I realize the thread title might refer to S-mode, but I use P-mode mostly!)

But now when we have such good IBIS there is no problem using a little longer shutter speed with lower ISO and still get good result.

Sometimes it used ISO 6400 for my evening shots, with wide angle focal length! Results get horrible in terms of quality. Camera think my hands are shaky and don't trust me keeping it steady. There is no problem to hand hold at 1/2 second. But still, to do that. You have to change settings manually!

Q: Is there no way you can alter the priority and change this so it gets a little smarter and actually use the great IBIS instead of pumping up the ISO? I'm not much of a manual shooter and would like to get this so it works automatically.


Three examples:

Example with Oly 12-45/4 at 12mm and f/4:

Example 3 - ISO 6400.jpg
Auto ISO 6400. Shutter time 1/15 sec.

Example 3 - ISO 1600.jpg
Manual ISO 1600. Shutter time 1/4 sec.

Example of same lens at 13mm and f/4:

Example 1 - ISO 2500.jpg
Auto ISO 2500. Shutter time 1/13 sec.

Example 1 - ISO 500.jpg
Manual ISO 500. Shutter time 1/2 sec.

Example of Laowa 7.5/2 at f/2:

Example 2 - ISO 6400.jpg
Auto ISO 6400. Shutter time 1/30 sec.

Example 2 - ISO 500.jpg
Manual ISO 500. Shutter time 1/2 sec.
 

ac12

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On my EM1-mk1, in P mode, the Auto-ISO minimum shutter speed logic appears to be 1/(FL x 2)
So at 45mm, the min shutter speed is 1/90 sec. And at 12mm, the min shutter speed is 1/25 sec.
This is in auto mode.

You can however, set the Auto ISO min/floor shutter speed, in the menu.
So for action subjects, you can specify 1/1000 sec, as the min shutter speed, to stop action.
I have not tried to go lower than 1/(FL x 2), but I presume it can be done.

You will have to check the menu of the EM5-mk3 to see if you have that option.
My EM1-mk1 does not have that shutter speed floor option, my EM1-mk2 does.
 
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StefanKruse

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Could you not just use S mode for these circumstances? I assume S and P mode will give same Aperture in low light anyway and open all the way up, so you could just dial in the shutterspeed you are able to handhold?

If you somehow change P mode to allow for a slower shutter before bumping ISO you risk blurry pictures the next time you shoot in P mode and there is movement in your shot. Changing some sort of ISO setting (not sure if it can be done) but then you would have to set this every time you shot depending on the subject - you could do a myset i guess but this still leaves more room for error than if you just put it in S mode.
 

Danny_SWE

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On my EM1-mk1, in P mode, the Auto-ISO minimum shutter speed logic appears to be 1/(FL x 2)
So at 45mm, the min shutter speed is 1/90 sec. And at 12mm, the min shutter speed is 1/25 sec.
This is in auto mode.

You can however, set the Auto ISO min/floor shutter speed, in the menu.
So for action subjects, you can specify 1/1000 sec, as the min shutter speed, to stop action.
I have not tried to go lower than 1/(FL x 2), but I presume it can be done.

You will have to check the menu of the EM5-mk3 to see if you have that option.
My EM1-mk1 does not have that shutter speed floor option.
Ok, thanks.
But searched through the manual quick on those terms and couldn't find it :(

Sidenote: You mean you never use slower speed than 1/25 at 12mm? That was much faster than my examples above on Auto ISO. That would mean a very high ISO?!


Could you not just use S mode for these circumstances? I assume S and P mode will give same Aperture in low light anyway and open all the way up, so you could just dial in the shutterspeed you are able to handhold?

If you somehow change P mode to allow for a slower shutter before bumping ISO you risk blurry pictures the next time you shoot in P mode and there is movement in your shot. Changing some sort of ISO setting (not sure if it can be done) but then you would have to set this every time you shot depending on the subject - you could do a myset i guess but this still leaves more room for error than if you just put it in S mode.
If I use S mode it would still crank up the ISO (I think). But it could be quite convenient if I use 1/2 s for example and know that there is the limit for that focal range/motif.

Yes. If things are moving in the frame it would be a whole different thing. Didn't consider that. Because I mostly shoot static subjects.
/edit: After consideration. When I shoot moving subjects (such as waterfall or BIF) I always use S-mode.
 

RAH

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Using Exposure Compensation in P mode changes the relative settings, I believe - i.e. it changes the aperture and shutter speed the camera is giving you to still give the same exposure). Couldn't you use that? I don't know what happens with the ISO when you use this, however. You could try it.
 

Stanga

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It's the exact reason why I use iISO on the Panasonic. It takes into account the level of movement of the camera and the objects in the frame.
 

Danny_SWE

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Using Exposure Compensation in P mode changes the relative settings, I believe - i.e. it changes the aperture and shutter speed the camera is giving you to still give the same exposure). Couldn't you use that? I don't know what happens with the ISO when you use this, however. You could try it.
Exposure compensation makes the pic lighter/darker. That is not something I want to change. But, it still changes the ISO to deal with this. Ie, lighter pic = higher ISO. (well, at least in my case where a faster aperture doesn't work :) )

It's the exact reason why I use iISO on the Panasonic. It takes into account the level of movement of the camera and the objects in the frame.
Oh my! I knew I missed something from Panasonic :( they sure have some benefits
 

RAH

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Exposure compensation makes the pic lighter/darker. That is not something I want to change.)
OK, I must be mixing up different cameras (perhaps Canon DSLRs or a point-and-shoot from another manufacturer). On some cameras in P mode, EC adjusts what I said, and doesn't change the exposure.

Anyway, what I should have said is use the rear wheel, which is described in the E-M5.3 manual under P mode as:

Program Shift
Without changing exposure, you can choose from different
combinations of aperture and shutter speed selected
automatically by the camera. This is known as program
shift.
• Rotate the rear dial until the camera displays the desired
combination of aperture and shutter speed.
• The shooting mode indicator in the display changes from P
to Ps while program shift is in effect. To end program shift,
rotate the rear dial in the opposite direction until Ps is no
longer displayed.
 
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ac12

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Ok, thanks.
But searched through the manual quick on those terms and couldn't find it :(

Sidenote: You mean you never use slower speed than 1/25 at 12mm? That was much faster than my examples above on Auto ISO. That would mean a very high ISO?!
Then, if you do not have the ability to specify a shutter speed floor; in order to shoot at a SLOW shutter speed, below 1/(FL x 2), you have to be in S or M mode, so that you can lower the shutter speed down as far as you want to go.

Being a senior citizen, I am not as steady as I used to be, so I don't push the lower speeds, even with IBIS helping.
I have probably shot wide and slow, but VERY few times.
 
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Stanga

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OK, I must be mixing up different cameras (perhaps Canon DSLRs or a point-and-shoot from another manufacturer). On some cameras in P mode, EC adjusts what I said, and doesn't change the exposure.
I strongly suspect that you are getting confused with with the Program Shift mode.
 

PakkyT

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Q: Is there no way you can alter the priority and change this so it gets a little smarter and actually use the great IBIS instead of pumping up the ISO? I'm not much of a manual shooter and would like to get this so it works automatically.
I don't mean to appear rude, but essentially you are saying 'I want to be able to control my camera's settings without actually having to change any controls'. :confused-53:

If you are using Auto-ISO then you can set the upper and lower limits and if you are shooting scenes where you do not want your ISO to go above, say 1600, then simply set that as the upper limit.

Otherwise your choice is to stick with setting the ISO manually. With the 12-45mm you are basically going to be at f4 for the types of shooting you posted as examples. So you can easily pick your shutter but rolling through the ISO settings (kind of a backwards "S" priority mode). Set the ISO then keep bumping the ISO down until the shutter slows down to whatever you think is your lower hand hold limit.

Otherwise, for auto-ISO, Olympus is always going to pick f4, will only lower the shutter to some fixed preset for the lens and focal length you are using, and then start cranking up the ISO. However once that max ISO is reached, THEN it will go back to lowering the shutter further. So if you set the upper limit in Auto-ISO low enough, for many shots it will lower the shutter even more. You just need to pick your personal max ISO you will tolerate. Or take the control of your controls and do it yourself.
 
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Danny_SWE

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OK, I must be mixing up different cameras (perhaps Canon DSLRs or a point-and-shoot from another manufacturer). On some cameras in P mode, EC adjusts what I said, and doesn't change the exposure.

Anyway, what I should have said is use the rear wheel, which is described in the E-M5.3 manual under P mode as:

Program Shift
Without changing exposure, you can choose from different
combinations of aperture and shutter speed selected
automatically by the camera. This is known as program
shift.
• Rotate the rear dial until the camera displays the desired
combination of aperture and shutter speed.
• The shooting mode indicator in the display changes from P
to Ps while program shift is in effect. To end program shift,
rotate the rear dial in the opposite direction until Ps is no
longer displayed.
ok, I use that often. I see it as a way to set my aperture in P mode without going for the A mode. Convenient.
But still no solution. I want to use fastest aperture in that case :)
 

Danny_SWE

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If you are using Auto-ISO then you can set the upper and lower limits and if you are shooting scenes where you do not want your ISO to go above, say 1600, then simply set that as the upper limit.
I can not set limits

I don't mean to appear rude, but essentially you are saying 'I want to be able to control my camera's settings without actually having to change any controls'. :confused-53:
no worries.
But is it too much to ask that it could be a little more flexible in that aspect. Panasonic has iISO which seems to work smarter. And if you don't like it you can just switch to "normal" AutoISO

Otherwise, for auto-ISO, Olympus is always going to pick f4, will only lower the shutter to some fixed preset for the lens and focal length you are using, and then start cranking up the ISO. However once that max ISO is reached, THEN it will go back to lowering the shutter further. So if you set the upper limit in Auto-ISO low enough, for many shots it will lower the shutter even more. You just need to pick your personal max ISO you will tolerate. Or take the control of your controls and do it yourself.
yes. This is how I did here. Turn down ISO so that shutter speed gets longer but still can be hand held.
 

PakkyT

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I can not set limits
Of course you can or I wouldn't have mentioned it. :thumbup:

1603490660374.png
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


Looks like your camera also lets you pick the lowest shutter speed before it raises ISO (same section mentions that).

Source - Page 169 of the M5.3 manual
 

Tread-Lite

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For the life of me I have never understood the utility of the P-mode. I guess I need to read the manual.

I concur with PakkyT. I normally shoot static subjects in A-mode for DOF control and, if there is not enough light, I control ISO manually so I get the camera to set the shutter speed that is hand-holdable, otherwise I stabilize the camera. I have assigned the multi-Fn button (since I shoot RAW) to access WB and ISO settings and use it in such situations. Setting ISO via super-control panel does not take long either. Once I am done with the scene, I switch back to Auto-ISO and double-check my ISO settings whenever I pick up my camera. I reserved custom modes for more exotic but useful stuff such as tracking fast subjects, Live Composite and focus stacking. Hope it helps.
 

ac12

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P mode is a nice general purpose mode, and gets away from the problems with Auto mode.
Just as long as you know when to switch to SAM modes.

Caution for guys with older cameras.
The EM1-mk1 and EM10-mk2, and likely other cameras, have a bug in the Auto ISO firmware.
If you shoot in P mode, and E/silent shutter, the camera will drop the shutter speed to a stupidly low speed, before raising the ISO.
On my EM1-mk1, the shutter speed dropped to 1/13 sec before the ISO would go up. IBIS can compensate for camera movement, but at 1/13 sec ANY subject movement = blurred image. These cameras do not have the option to set a shutter speed floor.
It works properly with the mechanical shutter.
 

StefanKruse

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If I use S mode it would still crank up the ISO (I think). But it could be quite convenient if I use 1/2 s for example and know that there is the limit for that focal range/motif.

Yes. If things are moving in the frame it would be a whole different thing. Didn't consider that. Because I mostly shoot static subjects.
/edit: After consideration. When I shoot moving subjects (such as waterfall or BIF) I always use S-mode.
Yes it would still crank up ISO in S mode to ensure you get a "properly" exposed shot, but if you set shutterspeed to your own handholding limit then the camera will open your aperture up to max - if this is not enough to expose "correctly" then you need to crank up ISO unless you want to underexpose. You could change the max ISO limit.
 

RAH

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I strongly suspect that you are getting confused with with the Program Shift mode.
Well, no, I was confused about how to INVOKE Program Shift mode on an Olympus camera. I want him to try Program Shift mode, thinking that it might help solve his shutter speed issue. I think that it probably is not what he needs, but since no one mentioned it, and it is something you can use in P Mode to change your settings, I figured I'd mention it.
 

Danny_SWE

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Hi all and thanks for answers. I have been fiddling with this now.

Conclusion is:

Olympus: AutoISO implementation is classic style. It strives to get fast shutter speed with cost of noise (higher ISO). Generally that might be a good idea if you shoot various subjects, sometimes moving subjects. Then it is necessary with fast shutter speed. But for me, I don't really like this function. In my examples here it cranks up the ISO to whatever the upper limit are, but still it could be longer shutter speed because IBIS works so well.

Panasonic: Has two functions. AutoISO which is the classic style, same as Olympus. But also "Intelligent ISO" (iISO). This iISO seems to be a little smarter so you don't use too high ISO. I don't know how it works but it could be something like it values all parameters, not only focal length. But also Image stabilization availability. If subject is moving (maybe something from DFD-system interacts with this). I have not tried too much but it seems to work quite well. Olympus could have done this also with these new PDAF-sensors.

Sorry guys, but I think Panasonics implementation seems better for me :( I will keep on setting the ISO manually. Luckily there is a dedicated ISO-button just above the thumb! (that is actually better than my G80 where the ISO function is default on up arrow button)


More examples:

Olympus E-M5.3 with 12-45/4 at 12mm and f/4 (P-mode).

1 - Oly AutoISO 5000 no limit.jpg
AutoISO (no limit adjust). ISO 5000. 1/60 sec.

2 - Oly AutoISO 1600 top limit set.jpg
AutoISO (upper limit set to 1600). ISO 1600. 1/25 sec.

3 - Oly Manual ISO 400.jpg
Manual ISO 400. 1/6 sec.

Panasonic G80 with 12-35/2.8 at 12mm and f/4 (A-mode).

4 - Pan AutoISO 3200.jpg
Intelligent ISO. ISO 400. 1/8 sec.

5 - Pan iISO 400.jpg
AutoISO. ISO 3200. 1/60 sec.
 
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