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Attention: Suspicious Activity in Buy & Sell: Lothe1961 and various aliases

demiro

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
2,850
Location
northeast US
I agree that we don't want to be having discussions in 'for sale' threads in general, but I think in cases where fraud is suspected, it's good to have some sort of alert, so folks aren't scammed in between the time when the admins are notified and the time when they are able to act.
I reported the post as suspected fraud, and I considered posting something in the thread, but ultimately didn't feel comfortable in doing so. I figured that the admins have access to more info than I, which may make what I was suggesting more or less likely to be true.

One take-away is that if you are paying by gift you have no one to blame but yourself if you get scammed. I know plenty of people use it, and I don't care to argue whether it's OK to not pay PayPal. The simple fact is if you send your money via Gift you are taking a huge chance.
 

moccaman

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
342
Location
Australia
Sellers asking you to use "gift" PayPal is always a red flag. If they're willing to steal from PayPal, how honest are they??
Ahh how do you figure this is stealing from paypal? Paypal is a private company not a bank, they charge huge fees when you add up the 3+% you get hit with to receive money along with the 3-4% min' they get you for on the exchange rate! Lets not get into the 10% feebay hits us with, thats a good 13.5% on average just to sell something on feebay all going to the same company in....Switzerland isnt it :rolleyes:

What really gets me is guys sticking stuff on here for sale and asking top dollar for it knowing if they stuck it on ebay they would get less and have to pay 10% of it in fees minimum. I have also seen some sellers in OZ pricing things way over what they are really worth, because they are trying to cover the 10% fees, one guy in particular has been trying to sell 25 and 45mm lenses and a bunch of other stuff for months and months...

Rant over :43::thumbup:
 

hazwing

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Messages
2,140
Location
Australia
I don't think I have that many posts to my name, but I'd definitely call myself honest and would never take someone's money and run. I "bought" an E-P5 and Panasonic 25mm from this guy but did it regular Paypal because it did seem fishy. If you're already getting an insane deal, it's worth paying 2.8% more for piece of mind if you're not sure about the other guy.
Let us know how it goes, and if you receive it.
 

Amin Sabet

Administrator
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Messages
10,905
Location
Boston, MA (USA)
This is not theft. Gift is a non-protected service Paypal gladly offers its users.
Asking for gift payment on sold goods is a violation of the PayPal user agreement.

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments.*If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.
Source:
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#top


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carpandean

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
827
Location
Western NY
Ahh how do you figure this is stealing from paypal?
Because you are fraudulently using a free service not meant for sales to bypass paying for a legitimate sales processing service that they provide for a fee. You have two options: pay the fee to purchase through them or don't purchase through them. They're not a charity; they're a business.
 

moccaman

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
342
Location
Australia
Fraudulently, LOL gotta love that particular word in the same sentence as PP....

Sorry you are wrong, have you ever used the gift option? I clicked on it to see what happens, maybe you should too (see below)

FYI you dont pay a fee to purchase through them, you pay a fee to accept money through them as a seller. If the buyer chooses to use gift THEY end up paying the fees! Send $300.00 to someone as a gift with your CC and you get hit with over 5% in fees! Guess how many people end up using the gift option....yeah thats right not many, certainly not me. If there is any fraud going on its certainly not by the users! LOL.

They are a business alright, one that I read refuses to sign the EFT banking charter, that holds peoples money for months on the premise of an account 'issue', that demands you accept a user agreement that basically waives your rights to any protection your credit card company can offer...
Its all well and good to defend corporations but imho there is a big difference between fair business and greed & monopoly.
 

Amin Sabet

Administrator
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Messages
10,905
Location
Boston, MA (USA)
Can we please drop the argument about whether this is stealing from PayPal? No one is going to convince the other person one way or the other.

These are facts:
-Seller asking for PayPal gift violates PayPal user agreement
-It is possible to send PayPal Gift payment (using linked bank account, for example) without PayPal getting any fees from the sender or receiver of the payment

Now whether you think it's okay to violate the user agreement and cut PayPal out of fees is up to you. There is nothing to be gained by arguing over it.
 

Cruzan80

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
1,107
Location
Denver, Co
Real Name
Sean Rastsmith
You know, there are these old fashioned things called checks, that dont charge anyone anything...

Sent from my LG-P769 using Mu-43 mobile app
 

carpandean

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
827
Location
Western NY
Can we please drop the argument about whether this is stealing from PayPal? No one is going to convince the other person one way or the other.
OK, no more ethical debate.


-It is possible to send PayPal Gift payment (using linked bank account, for example) without PayPal getting any fees from the sender or receiver of the payment
Yes, ethics aside and purely for information sake, the fees that one might have to pay for Paypal Gift are the credit card transaction fees (Paypal will move your gift money for free, but not for a loss) and possibly currency exchange fees. If one uses a linked account or Paypal balance to send money within their own country, then there are no fees.

The biggest thing to remember to help avoid being scammed, is that if you buy using Paypal Gift, then you have no protection (credit card protection, aside, but then you have those fees.) In other words, to be protected, someone is paying a fee for that service.
 

Joelmusicman

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
90
It usually is a small amount in the end, but it could be the difference between someone scoring a sale/buy here and someone going somewhere else.
It's usually a small amount in the end, but it could mean the difference between getting the stuff you bought or getting scammed. Not worth the risk IMO.
 

RDM

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,408
Location
Orange County, New York
You know, there are these old fashioned things called checks, that don't charge anyone anything...
Personal checks have the risk of insufficient funds in their account and your bank would charge you for that so I understand why people do not like that. It use to be a payment option on eBay and I remember selling and accepting that way, but it is not an option there anymore .
However I agree, certified checks or money orders which cost a dollar or two is a good way to go, but no one ever accepts those. I once offered to purchase a lens with a money order and the seller said it was OK, but told me until he received the payment he would make it available to whoever sent him money 1st. Meaning if someone paypaled him while my payment was in the mail i would be SOL and he would have my money too. If one pays with a P.O. Money order through the mail and gets scammed its a federal offense and with a little bit of hassle, can put a claim in with the FBI; anything more than $500 is considered grand theft and they are likely to move on that.
We live in a world of instant Gratification and people want things as fast as possible, and paypal helps with that..
 

Cruzan80

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
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Denver, Co
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Sean Rastsmith
I was commenting regarding people sending money without fees. I assumed if you were going to buy something, you had enough to pay for it.

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Nuteshack

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
199
Most of the time people have more than login, it's because they changed their mind about the user name they want. The most frequent illegitimate reason for multiple accounts is to bump their buy & sell threads. This guy was tricky because he used a bunch of different IP addresses, and I never realized just how many accounts he had until the suspicious activity was reported and I did some real digging.

Banning is not as easy as it sounds. I banned three other people yesterday alone for multiple accounts yesterday, and ALL of them emailed me to complain with some story about how their girlfriend or mother is also doing buy & sell from the same IP and computer. I believe none of them but reinstated two because of a perceived 1% chance that they are telling the truth. And if they now know that if they ever comment on one another's Buy & Sell threads, the ban will be permanent. All of this takes time and energy, but I try hard not to ban people unless I am 99.99% sure they deserve it.
...Great policy

- - - Updated - - -

PayPal offers protection but do they really come through? some ten years ago, maybe more, i attempted to purchase some software from what turned out to be a fraudulent unauthorized 3rd party vendor. Even after providing undeniable proof, PayPal demanded i pay up...whata joke!
 

SRHEdD

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Messages
979
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Viera, Florida USA
Real Name
Steve
On the other hand, as much as I hate paying their fees, they have covered me about a half dozen times to the tune of several hundred dollars total.
 

RoadTraveler

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
1,026
I agree that we don't want to be having discussions in 'for sale' threads in general, but I think in cases where fraud is suspected, it's good to have some sort of alert, so folks aren't scammed in between the time when the admins are notified and the time when they are able to act.
Thanks to all the moderators and site admin for their work and this community. While I've had very positive experiences buying and selling some gear on this forum, I've always found it a bit disturbing that someone can create an account and sell with zero posts.

When I'm considering buying from someone on a forum, I want to buy from an individual, not someone with a shop that is moving goods instead of using CL or eBay, or... Other forums I've participated on for years (automotive/travel related) require a minimum number of posts before one can sell things, and they don't let folks with businesses move a volume of products in the for sale section. I've seen examples here of a guy selling the same model lens repeatedly, over months, which sure looks like someone with a store/business. (I'm not referring to Monk3y, who is a regular participating member, and is the type of 'member seller' I would allow, admittedly a grey-area.)

A minimum number of posts could be as low as 10-20, but would help prevent scammers as well as businesses from using this as their storefront. Looking at previous posts can help paint a picture of who/what they are (a business, a scammer, etc.), or a regular member just trying to sell or buy gear.
 

Cruzan80

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
1,107
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Denver, Co
Real Name
Sean Rastsmith
The problem with that is you get people making junk posts in order to raise their post count to the point that they can use the buy/sell, and never posting again. One nice part about this is the level of quality and courtesy in the posts here. Not saying your idea wouldn't be helpful, just presenting the other side of the argument that I have seen in other forums.
 

teddoman

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
191
Location
nyc
Please also consider that these ultra cheap deals may be stolen goods. Once they launder a stolen camera into this community, it becomes clean as a bona fide member will be assumed to have acquired it properly. The whole community would be better off by not feeding the thieves that steal our cameras, and that starts with not giving them our business just because it's a cheap deal. Personally, I think getting in the habit of buying and selling with the original purchaser receipt delivered as part of the transaction is a great way of keeping B&S forums out of the stolen goods market, requiring lenstagged serial numbers, or using other clues to ascertain how likely it is that these are stolen goods.

Adding a few extra fields to the B&S template would help make buyers and sellers more conscious of these things, all while retaining the freedom to transact as we wish, e.g.
- original receipt included / not included
- original box, paperwork included / not included
- Lenstag serial number verification link

ps How about requiring all usernames from a single IP address should be linked somehow so that at least we all know we're dealing with the same household?
And how about banning posting in the B&S forum entirely unless you have a certain post count in the regular forums? That would solve the false bumping problem
 

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