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Are you OK with others editing and reposting your images?

Discussion in 'Help and Feedback' started by Amin Sabet, Apr 24, 2010.

  1. Amin Sabet

    Amin Sabet Administrator

    Apr 10, 2009
    Boston, MA (USA)
    A couple times, the issue has come up that members have posted images and asked for feedback, and other members have responded by editing and reposting modified versions of the original image as a way to communicate a suggested modification.

    Although genuinely useful, this editing and reposting is a possible copyright violation unless explicit permission is given for those actions and is against our site rules. One way to get around this is for a group of individuals to agree to have that permission granted by default. One of our groups has decided to collectively go that route.

    I've added a setting in User CP>Edit Your Details called "Image edit and repost permission" where you can choose to select "OK" and then save. Doing so will put the phrase "IMAGE EDITING OK" in each of your posts as it is in mine (shown just underneath the post count). This is a way of showing others that it is okay to edit and repost your images, for critique/illustration purposes, within the same thread where it was originally posted. This is strictly opt-in. The default is all rights reserved, ie "Not OK".

    Credit to POTN for coming up with this system.
     
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  2. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    As long as they:
    a) improve the photo, and
    b) tell me what they did :)
     
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  3. goldenlight

    goldenlight Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 30, 2010
    Essex
    John
    Great Idea, Amin, I've just updated my details to show editing allowed. It's a great way to learn more about your own pictures and in my case a second opinion is always valued and appreciated. :smile:
     
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  4. goldenlight

    goldenlight Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 30, 2010
    Essex
    John
    Haha! There is no guarantee that the picture will be improved, especially if it is me doing the editing. However, you don't have to take the advice. Whether I agree with it or not, I always find someone else's opinion of my pictures to be of great value.
     
  5. PeterB666

    PeterB666 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    780
    Jan 14, 2010
    Tura Beach, Australia
    Peter
    If it is someone who I regularly engage with in 2-way dialog, no problems. Everyone else should ask first and wait for a reply. Suggestions are always welcome but manipulation enters my personal 'photography space'.

    My photography is for my enjoyment. While I like to improve I am not necessarily seeking the same type of perfection as others. For example, I prefer minimal processing and natural colours. I don't like heavy manipulation to make a stunning picture. My vision for my photography should be respected by others.

    Cheers

    PeterB666
     
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  6. goldenlight

    goldenlight Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 30, 2010
    Essex
    John
    Absolutely, Peter, which is why I feel this initiative by Amin is to be applauded. :smile:
     
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  7. Iansky

    Iansky Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 26, 2009
    The Cotswolds, UK
    Objectivity

    The above two points are critical, feedback is far better if the individual giving it can demonstrate the effect of the changes they suggest on the original image, and also lay out in chronological order what they did.

    The aim of the game is to learn from the expertise of others - I am a very mediocre Photoshop user so any criticism/changes made to my images, if accompanied by clear instructions are always very acceptable and much appreciated.

    To date, I have not seen it on this site but on other sites there are the inevitable "armchair experts" who criticise images, make controversial suggestions yet very rarely if ever post their own images - this causes frustration and causes constructive posts to diminish into personal attacks - thank God we have a membership of predominantly "user photographers" who provide constructive not controversial feedback.

    Thanks to all Mu 4/3rds members.:bravo-009:
     
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  8. BBW

    BBW Super Moderator Emeritus

    Amin, thanks so much for enabling this option! As long as members are aware of the option they can choose it, and everyone should be set.:wink:

    However, since I feel much as Peter does, it is very important for people to respect the individual poster's wishes. So if one does not see the "IMAGE EDITING OK" line - ask first and wait for a reply.

    Everyone has made good points in this thread, and Ian you've covered a lot of bases in your post, too.:thumbup:
     
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  9. Amin Sabet

    Amin Sabet Administrator

    Apr 10, 2009
    Boston, MA (USA)
    Thanks Peter and BB for discussing why you've chosen not to opt in. A couple of times, I've had to delete posts because of images used without permission, and the person who posted the edited photo has called me draconian or said that such rights were obvious or implied. Your comments reinforce why the default setting is "all rights reserved".
     
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  10. goldenlight

    goldenlight Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 30, 2010
    Essex
    John
    Yes, we are all different and I totally respect those who wish to maintain the integrity of their own work. As far as my own work is concerned you can rip it to pieces, trash it, mock it, ridicule it or laugh at it, but please oh please don't ignore it! :biggrin:
     
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  11. GaryCh

    GaryCh Mu-43 Regular

    88
    Apr 14, 2010
    Ditto

    Although when it comes to other peoples work I almost certainly will copy, edit and generally tinker with at leisure. We have, in copyright law, a concept of 'fair use' and I dont think any copyright is untouchable (morally or legally). We also have a fair use of copyright work 'in parody' which I defend also.

    People may not like that, and I'll genuinely try not to offend those people... but what I choose to do with their images in private is my own concern ; )

    What I WONT do is steal to use commercially or pass their work off as my own - people that do so are, in my opinion, scum.

    My sincere apologies if that offends anyone.


    -Gary
     
  12. Amin Sabet

    Amin Sabet Administrator

    Apr 10, 2009
    Boston, MA (USA)
    Gary, I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're referring to what you do in private on your own computer, that is none of my concern. If you mean reposting your modification of their work here at mu-43.com, then that is not allowed without explicit permission from the copyright holder.

    Fair use is a nebulous doctrine, which I do not believe covers the type of editing and reposting permissions sometimes taken for granted in this sort of forum. Although I realize that a case could be made for fair use in some specific situations, I feel strongly about the rights of the photographer to decide where and how his or her photographs are displayed here at mu-43.com.
     
  13. Bokeh Diem

    Bokeh Diem Mu-43 Top Veteran

    655
    Mar 14, 2010
    Toronto
    Absolutely, yes... what better way to learn than at the hands of your peers? And, it gives people a chance to improve on their constructive criticism technique.

    I have run this gamut before with re-posting of my images (annotated personal stockcharts, using my display formulae), elsewhere. Some abused it, most abided by the rules and accredited the original, and described the changes.

    Bokeh D
     
  14. goldenlight

    goldenlight Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 30, 2010
    Essex
    John
    I'm not sure even this holds water anymore. You may well be familiar with the parodies of the Hitler rant scene from the film "Downfall" - there are over 100 versions, with the Nikon D3 rant probably best known by enthusiast photographers. Only this week Youtube has felt compelled to start removing them following threatened copyright action from the films distributers, even thought the director himself admitted he found them "hillarious." I don't know if any are still up, but the latest version I found was Hitler ranting that his parodies were being removed from Youtube!

    PS I would post a link, but with possible legal action looming I wouldn't want to implicate this site in any way!
     
  15. Amin Sabet

    Amin Sabet Administrator

    Apr 10, 2009
    Boston, MA (USA)
    US copyright law/doctrine is only one piece. Mu-43.com is a privately owned and maintained site, so the site rules can impose additional limitations beyond those provided by copyright law. For example, it would be perfectly legal (though unreasonable) for our rules to include "no pictures of elephants allowed at mu-43.com".

    So regardless of what "fair use" may or may not cover as a doctrine, the editing and reposting of images without explicit permission from the copyright holder is not allowed here at mu-43.com.
     
  16. Streetshooter

    Streetshooter Administrator Emeritus

    Dec 15, 2009
    Phila, Pa USA
    I thought that we opened the Straight Talk Discussion Group to hve a place dedicated for this exact issue....
     
  17. GaryCh

    GaryCh Mu-43 Regular

    88
    Apr 14, 2010
    I mean personal use. It seems the debate here concerns editing ... if it is nobody's concern what I do in private (including playing around in lighzone or photoshop) then surely *editing* is not the issue ... *reposting* becomes the issue.

    I feel I can *edit* any image with a clear conscience... and I certainly will.

    See, you said reposting. There's the crux of it. I've already done so without explicit permission, to describe a photoshop workflow that addresses the posters question... and I saw nothing wrong of it.

    But then, it was in the same thread... where ownership was not in doubt and the original was being displayed publicly, thus to the SAME audience. This is not and should never be a problem... certainly not one addressable by copyright law.

    But, I've deleted the image.

    And I feel strongly that wherever an artist chooses to exhibit to an audience, nothing has been lost in displaying the same image, or a derrivative work, to the SAME audience (the thread)... Indeed I hardly feel the need for attribution when responding to an OP's picture post. Ownership is clear scope of publication is not enlarged, etc.

    The only problems begin when someone reposts OUTSIDE of the thread.

    Now, I'll play by whatever rules are set as regards forum posts, but in private I'll do what I will (including editing). I'm just seeing copyright law and DRM getting increasingly out of control along with 'politically correct' tantrum avoidance. I'm just calling for a little common sanity here.

    If someone posts a re-interpretation in the same thread, no harm is done... audience is not enlarged. Where's the beef ?


    -Gary
     
  18. cosinaphile

    cosinaphile Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 26, 2009
    new york city
    i would expect any well intentioned image editor to wait for permission , or have
    "carte blanche" on threads created for this where participation would presuppose permission,
     
  19. GaryCh

    GaryCh Mu-43 Regular

    88
    Apr 14, 2010
    Depends... have you never played with images obtained from the web without permission ? Just for your own curiosity or satisfaction ? I have and I will continue to do so.

    I think as long as I am not 'passing off', profiting from or making the image available to others then I'm fine. And, in a thread, the owner of the image has already freely opened up the image to that specific audience ... editing is play, play is learning, and keeping it within an audience already pre-accepted by the copyright owner is hardly infringement... nor should it be 'immoral by default'.

    Of course, if someone explicitly said they didn't want anyone to edit and redisplay the image then I think we'd all accept that out of common decency... if not then sure, let the moderators warn and remove.

    Do we REALLY need a blanket rule forbidding all editing without explicit license? I think that would be quite sad to be honest, particularly for an open, friendly learning community as we appear to have here. But sure, go ahead and arrest me for indiscriminate cropping : ))))

    Just to be clear - I would agree if we were discussing use outside of the specific thread in which a photographer chooses to display... I just don't see why we should have a blanket ban on image play.

    But then, I'm a bit grumpy today : / Maybe it's just me : )


    -Gary
     
  20. Streetshooter

    Streetshooter Administrator Emeritus

    Dec 15, 2009
    Phila, Pa USA
    Gary,
    Personally, I don't have time to work on my own images let alone someone's from the forum or any other place for that matter.
    If you like to do that kind of thing and have the time to do it, it would be a big help in the discussion group.
    There you are welcomed to do so and will not be shot at dawn.
    shooter
     
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