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Anyone thinks is it too fast?

Discussion in 'This or That? (MFT only)' started by Halaking, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. Halaking

    Halaking Mu-43 Top Veteran

    667
    Dec 17, 2012
    Los Angeles
    Morris
    I think Panasonic is updating its G or GF models too fast, buying at the frist 3 months, not much discount, buying at 3-6 months, more discount but you know it's going to drop, maybe just next week, buying at 6-9 months, great discount, almost the cheapest price you can get, but the new model is coming out.

    Panasonic just make these model basically not much resale value, that just remind me the strategy from the Canon & Sony's low-end P&S all these years.

    PS: I think peny and oly should build more lenses sooner not bodys.
     
  2. jloden

    jloden Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 15, 2012
    Hunterdon County, NJ
    Jay
    I'm not sure, but I think part of the reason might be their pricing/value model. They seem to make most of their money off the initial release and early adopters through the first 1-2 rounds of price drops. Then the body prices just plummet in short order, until I can only imagine their profit margin becomes tiny. Given that that's been the case for the few years I've been tracking it, I wonder if it's also why they're on such a rapid replacement cycle for their bodies.

    It's also possible they're doing it intentionally as a development model, to release incremental changes more frequently and grow the system rapidly. It's hard to deny looking at m4/3's history that it's matured extremely quickly. If Panasonic and Olympus were turning out bodies at the rate that Nikon and Canon do, I'm not sure growth would be nearly so successful or fast.
     
  3. dhazeghi

    dhazeghi Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 6, 2010
    San Jose, CA
    Dara
    The problem is that the iteration has sped up as the system has matured, rather than tapering off. That's a great way to flood the market with inexpensive, poorly differentiated models. It's not a great way to make money, or to grow the system among the sort of users that are likely to buy more m4/3 gear. Being able to maintain prices throughout the lifetime of a product is a key aspect of achieving long-term stability. Panasonic, at least in the USA, has not managed that.
     
  4. jloden

    jloden Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 15, 2012
    Hunterdon County, NJ
    Jay
    That's presuming the business model for m4/3 cameras should mirror the one for DSLRs; maybe that's not the case. I have no idea what the market research or sales numbers are saying, so this is pure speculation on my part, but I have to wonder if the issue isn't that they don't know how to manage long term stability, it's just that it's not the best business model for them.

    Just for the sake of argument, let's look at it this way: what if most of their sales are switchers coming from P&S cameras, downsizing from a DSLR, or just not sticking with the system for the long term. In that case, it's potentially a net benefit for them to keep releasing new, latest & greatest models that differentiate both from their direct competition (Olympus) and other systems. For instance, the big push right now seems to be wi-fi enabled cameras - none of the Nikon models can do wi-fi and Canon only has one model. Those types of features may be worth pushing new models out because it means making many more short term sales with increased market coverage.

    Again, all of this is just speculation without looking at the sales figures or market research information. But I wouldn't be surprised if these are conscious decisions to exploit a different marketing strategy from the "build a userbase and keep them upgrading every few years" approach that works for Canon and Nikon. Heck, in an ecosystem like m4/3 where your lenses work on more than one manufacturer, it might make that strategy even less viable since there's nothing really keeping people from jumping ship to Olympus (or vice versa) if something enticing comes along. Lots of factors out there could be influencing strategy, and only the bottom line numbers would show whether it's working for them or not.
     
  5. dhazeghi

    dhazeghi Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 6, 2010
    San Jose, CA
    Dara
    That's a fair point, but at least for the last year or so, both Olympus and Panasonic have been losing money on cameras. How much of that is mirrorless and how much of that is compacts isn't really clear, but clearly something isn't working.

    My great fear is that the size of the market overall isn't large enough to support the consumer-electronic model that many are following, so when sales growth starts to slow due to saturation, many of the unprofitable players are going to look at the bottom line and decide that it's not worth it.
     
  6. sinclair

    sinclair Mu-43 Veteran

    If it weren't for this quick cycle, and thus great deal on a camera right before the release of the update, I wouldn't be here. I've wanted to get a digital interchangeable lens camera, but pricing barred the way. It was a blowout sale of GF5s right before the GF6 that got me to pull the trigger, otherwise I might of gotten a Canon in another 5 years.
     
  7. GFFPhoto

    GFFPhoto Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 24, 2013
    I think its awesome. It's not like m43 lacks lens choices.
     
  8. Halaking

    Halaking Mu-43 Top Veteran

    667
    Dec 17, 2012
    Los Angeles
    Morris
    Thanks for all the replies!!

    But I thinks it's hard to pull the trigger you know it's going to drop 20% or 30% within 1-2 months, would you buy or wait?

    One of my friend using Mark III, he bought his Canon same time as I got my OMD, he said he feels comfortable with his investment, Mark 4 won't shows up 3-4 years, even the new Mark 4 coming out, he can get about 50% back for sell the old, pay another 50% to get the new, and the L lenses are worth 70-80% of its vaule within years of use, timing & resale value is much predictable. 50% drop in resale value? That's less than 12 months for M4/3, we can even buy new. Using M4/3 we could end up lost more money than APS-C or even full frame (percentagewise), I'm not talking about systems, just time frame and resale value.
     
  9. speedandstyle

    speedandstyle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    I agree that they{both Panasonic and Olympus} are updating their bodies far too often. If they have some sort of significant upgrade to add then that is one thing but often they are mild at best. This is on top of multiple body styles and levels. Although m4/3 does have a nice selection of lenses there are some gaps that need filling.
     
  10. Halaking

    Halaking Mu-43 Top Veteran

    667
    Dec 17, 2012
    Los Angeles
    Morris
    Just my thought, that's why I come to learn everyday on this site :2thumbs:
     
  11. spatulaboy

    spatulaboy I'm not really here

    Jul 13, 2011
    North Carolina
    Vin
    The Auto industry has been doing this for years.
     
  12. didole

    didole New to Mu-43

    9
    Jun 27, 2012
    Well, German cars a typically replaced by a new model every 7 years, with a minor facelift in the middle of that period. And yes, they seem to be pretty successful with this approach ;-)
     
  13. Cruzan80

    Cruzan80 Mu-43 All-Pro

    Aug 23, 2012
    Denver, Co
    Sean Rastsmith
    Kind of. What BMW does is to roll out a newer designed model about every 2.5 years, and they cycle through their series one at a time. So while a 3 series only changes every 7 years, there has been a new 5 and 7 introduced. Equate that with a new PM, PL & P once a year, taking 3 years to overall cycle to a new model in the same category.
     
  14. didole

    didole New to Mu-43

    9
    Jun 27, 2012
    Yep. Instead, you get a new PM, PL and P every 1-2 years EACH. But hey, we should not complain: this is good for customers, because you can get last years brand new model for half the original price, if you don't have to be an early adopter. I just don't understand how the camera makers ever want to make money with such a product lifecycle. To me it seems like they are in panic mode.
     
  15. shizlefonizle

    shizlefonizle Mu-43 Veteran

    372
    Apr 21, 2012
    Mirrorless in general moves at a faster rate compared to DSLRs so I assume Olympus and Panasonic need to keep up the pace. Look at NEX for example. Plus making new model keeps you relevant, as people and reviewers will always mention it. Flagship mirrorless cameras still retain their value pretty well, and I would expect even better with "Pro" models.
     
  16. jloden

    jloden Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 15, 2012
    Hunterdon County, NJ
    Jay
    If I were any good at taking my own advice, I'd do exactly that: wait several months until at least the first price drop. Every m4/3 camera has done it, and my experience is that it seems every camera and lens drops 20% the second it hits the used market (unless it's in high demand due to scarcity). If you can wait a little while and not have to buy the latest and greatest, you can run one generation behind by less than a year and be paying bargain prices comparatively.

    I suspect the better value retention in higher end cameras also has a lot to do with price points. A Canon 5D Mk III is $3300 right now (already dropped from $3500 at release). Used ones already drop another $300 off their value, but that's almost a drop in the bucket when you're already spending $3000 for just the camera body.

    If you were an early adopter your camera has already dropped $500 in resale value in a year - but it's still worth around $3k. On the flip side, a $500 m4/3 body that loses $1-200 just took a huge hit to its overall value and you're going to feel it that much more. That much at least would be the case regardless of whether it were 1 year between releases, or 3.
     
  17. mattia

    mattia Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 3, 2012
    The Netherlands
    Honestly, the only Canon (and Nikon) camera bodies that really retain any sort of value are the top end. And even those drop pretty significantly. The xxxxD, xxxD and even cams like the 7D are moderately disposable and don't hold value terribly well. The glass holds value better (same should hold true for the better MFT gear - kit glass will remain cheap).

    Look at the E-M5, for example. The E-M5 (body only) price has dropped about 20% here, compared to a roughly 15% price drop for the Canon 5D mark III (looking at NL prices here). The latter is still a lot more money, and the absolute amount of cash 'lost' is larger, which is why I think percentages aren't really terribly relevant ways to look at this. The absolute figures matter more. For the drop in value on a 5DIII, you can buy an E-PM2, f'r instance. A 200 dollar hit is always smaller than a 500 dollar hit.

    Just remember: you're not investing in heirlooms, you're buying photographic tools. And just because they're not worth a huge amount in resale doesn't mean you can't get a ton of value out of them. I still own my 300D (OM-D prices new, now worth essentially nothing), my 5DII (might still get 40% of what I paid for it brand new out of it, but I'll just keep it and wait for a real sensor improvement from Canon), and they still take fantastic pictures. And that's the only upgrade step I ever took with Canon.
     
  18. sinclair

    sinclair Mu-43 Veteran

    And this is why I don't quite understand why so many people complain about the devalue of their electronics. You don't buy them as an investment (If you do, you are a fool, IMHO.), you buy them to be used. It's just a bonus if they hold some value. I didn't buy my camera with the thought to resell it in a year or two to get the latest and greatest. I don't understand why people do do that kind of thing. I bought it to use it until it's dead. I'm going to make memories with my GF5, like I did with my AE-1 before it. Heck, I just barely upgraded my desktop Mac, from a Power Mac that was made in 2001 to a two year old Mac Pro.

    Yes, it make more sense to refresh every year with point and shoots, but then I think those are some of the people mFT is aimed at.
     
  19. dornblaser

    dornblaser Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 13, 2012
    Chicago-area
    David Dornblaser
    I would like to see Panasonic and Olympus keep a longer product cycle for the O-MD E-M5 and GH3. :43: has quite of mix of quality from products for those stepping up from P&S to truly creative tools that pros and serious amateurs use; all with little or no differentiation by Panasonic and Olympus.
     
  20. Halaking

    Halaking Mu-43 Top Veteran

    667
    Dec 17, 2012
    Los Angeles
    Morris
    :2thumbs:

    So true, I totally agree with you. One thing I have to learn is "how to stop I want to buy new technology electronics every year", the real difference for the product between year to year usually very minimal.