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Anti-Aliasing Filter and OMD E-M10ii?

Discussion in 'Olympus Cameras' started by Austrokiwi, Mar 20, 2016.

  1. Austrokiwi

    Austrokiwi Mu-43 Regular

    46
    Mar 19, 2016
    I am a newby here so I ask for some patience especially if I am repeating an old discussion/question (my apologies if I have). I have already ordered a OMD E-M10ii. I have done a reasonable amount of research but since paying my deposit I read some new information that has confused me. I ordered the camera assuming it had an Anti-aliasing filter, then I read a couple of reviews that stated it didn't ( which pleased me). Then I read this comparison with the A7rm2( My main camera) and see the reviewer states the M10ii does have an Anti aliasing filter..... so does any one have some definitive information does the camera have or not have an ant-aliasing filter?
    the comparison:
    Olympus E-M10 II vs Sony A7R II Detailed Comparison
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  2. b_rubenstein

    b_rubenstein Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 20, 2012
    Melbourne, FL
    Unless the manufacturer states that a camera has or hasn't an anti-alias filter there is no way to know for sure. An anti-alias filter reduces, or diminishes alias artifacts such as moire. Alias artifacts are due to lenses and subjects that have higher spatial frequencies that the sensor can capture. Sensors with small distances between pixels, such as the 16mp one in the E-M10II has, will not have alias artifacts, because they have a high spatial frequency sampling rate.

    I have no idea about why you are worrying about the presence of an anti-alias filter in the E-M10II.
     
  3. magicaxeman

    magicaxeman Mu-43 Regular

    76
    Feb 27, 2016
    Essex UK
    Ian
    To be honest the Olympus site doesn't state it has or it hasn't, and is the same for the Pen F which doesn't have an AA filter.

    The main benefit of omitting the AA filter is increased sharpness in images and can appear quite significant, the downside of course is you may suffer from Moire artefacts on some subjects but I've never found it a problem and think the benefits of leaving the AA filter out outweigh the disadvantages.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Austrokiwi

    Austrokiwi Mu-43 Regular

    46
    Mar 19, 2016
    Not worrying I am confused by the different reports I just wanted to know whether the camera has the filter or not( I assumed that it does). I would be nice if the sensor was missing the low by pass filter, but I am not concerned if it, as I assume, has the filter.

    I encounter moire reasonably often with my Sony A7rM2 Not enough to be really annoying but enough to be conscious of it and avoid scenes where it arises
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  5. Austrokiwi

    Austrokiwi Mu-43 Regular

    46
    Mar 19, 2016
    I emailed Olympus Europe and I got my answer

    thank you for your email.

    The E-M10 Mark II has a digital low pass filter, ie. it is a feature of the processor, not an optical filter as such.


    Should you have more questions, do not hesitate to contact us.


    So now I am intrigued Sony and Canon shout it to the world when they produce a camera which has a sensor without an anti Aliasing filter( to be honest Canon cheated and installed a corrective filter over the low bypass filter). while you have to really dig to find out from Olympus that there is not an anti-aliasing filter. I am wondering whether Moire is a much more significant problem when the pixel sizes are 3.75um or less? I know the sony A7rii produces moire more often than the A7r.
     
  6. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    Interesting...I had thought that part of the reason that more and more manufacturers were omitting the AA filter was because of increased resolution and high pixel densities. Intuitively, it seems like the higher the pixel density, the higher the resolution limit it has, and the less likelihood that you'll find a pattern at the same frequency to trigger it. I guess it's kind of a fractal phenomenon, so that a fabric that would cause moire in a lower pixel density sensor would just cause it on a higher pixel density sensor when it is at a slightly farther distance from the camera...but that also assumes that the lens has a high enough ability to resolve that.

    To be honestly, I never really notice moiré as a problem with the subjects I shoot, so in general I feel like I would prefer no AA filter for that extra level of crispness. The first time I noticed it was when doing test shots of a bookshelf with my 20mm/1.7 on a tripod using the e-shutter, and at f2.8 the half-toning on the printed backs was causing moire. That lens is sharp...! Both my M4/3 cameras have an AA filter though, so it's kind of a moot point.
     
  7. CWRailman

    CWRailman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    564
    Jun 2, 2015
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Denny
    Exactly!! The increase in sharpness is significant when doing product shots or something requiring a lot of close up detail such as I do. When photographing landscapes or non detail demanding captures it is not as important. On some cameras the AA was significant and virtually negated the benefits to buying high quality lenses.
     
  8. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    Haha, it's funny, I was just thinking that landscapes are among the most demanding captures you can make in terms of resolution. I find that being able to distinguish foliage detail at a distance adds a lot to the immersiveness of an image and is no easy feat.
     
  9. Brian Beezley

    Brian Beezley Mu-43 All-Pro

    An antialias filter must precede sampling. This means it must be located ahead of the sensor optically and thus implemented physically.

    Brian
     
  10. CWRailman

    CWRailman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    564
    Jun 2, 2015
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Denny
    It might be that the shooter wants to zoom in and check the detail of a landscape image however in taking product shots the final image is sometimes enlarged to twice or more the actual size of the item and the customer expects that image to be sharp and all the minute detail to come through. Landscape images are not subjected to that high degree of magnification.
     
  11. Austrokiwi

    Austrokiwi Mu-43 Regular

    46
    Mar 19, 2016
    I understood the Olympus rep's email as saying that the processor filters out moire effects, and that is what some reviews state. What was clear to me, from the answer from Olympus, is that there is no physical filter. It was poor wording but I think the rep was a native German speaker( I am in Austria)
     
  12. b_rubenstein

    b_rubenstein Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 20, 2012
    Melbourne, FL
    Moire is very, very difficult to remove in processing. With the right subject moire can occur. Landscape images will almost never exhibit moire, because then type of subject that would cause it hardly ever naturally occurs in nature.
     
  13. Austrokiwi

    Austrokiwi Mu-43 Regular

    46
    Mar 19, 2016
    That may well be the case but that doesn't change what Olympus told me. I suggest you communicate with Olympus yourself to clarify that matter for your self. I see no reason why they would mislead me and I accept the statement to me that the camera has no Optical bypass filter
     
  14. b_rubenstein

    b_rubenstein Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 20, 2012
    Melbourne, FL
    My statement has nothing to do with what Olympus (actually an Olympus subsidiary and not Olympus Japan where the technical people are) told you.

    To begin to grasp beyond a superficial level what an anti-alias filter is, what it does and why it's important requires knowledge of things like Nyquist frequency, Fourier transforms, digital signal processing and a few other things you aren't going to properly learn from reading general internet forums.
     
  15. Austrokiwi

    Austrokiwi Mu-43 Regular

    46
    Mar 19, 2016
    I don't need lectures I asked a simple question and now I have some one trying to prove how much camera testosterone he has. I have my answer from Olympus and I am now leaving the forum.
     
  16. CWRailman

    CWRailman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    564
    Jun 2, 2015
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Denny
    May I suggest you check out the DPReview of the E-M10 which explains how the Olympus anti-aliasing system works, the E-M10II is probably the same. You might want to check out their review of that model. Olympus OM-D E-M10 Review

    In your very first posting you indicated you are a "newby". Your term and spelling not mine. While you did get a response from some Olympus representative which for all you know may have been the janitor, they did not take the time to properly explain how their process works. Maybe it was a sales person who does not know how it works. The folks on this forum, who have taken the time to post responses are just attempting to provide some information that Olympus may not have provided you and in some areas they may actually be more experienced and knowledgeable than those people at Olympus who answered your question.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2016
  17. Austrokiwi

    Austrokiwi Mu-43 Regular

    46
    Mar 19, 2016
    Denny...... I am a newbie to the forum, perhaps my wording was not clear but I did assume that as I stated my main camera is an A7rm2 people would realize I was not a newbie to photography. I am not a novice to photography I am an experienced enthusiast. I purchased the A7r because of the absence of the AA filter, and I upgraded to the A7rm2 because of the issues of shutter shock. I know what an AA/Low-by-pass filter does. I suggest people engage brain before typing responses. You and others can read quite clearly that I am highly irritated. I enjoy photography but not the experience here. I had one person PM me encouraging me not to leave.... so I came back and then I read see Denny's last post which didn't improve my experience.

    Denny I am not ignorant to the fact that the Olympus "shop window" staff may not be that well informed. What impressed me is someone took the time to check with a techie and then got back to me. Yes the answer was a little strange. To me it just indicated that the techie couched the reply in terms that the customer support person would understand (or alternately in terms that would satisfy an uninformed customer) I know from experience, as poorly worded as the response was, it was much better than the responses I have got from Sony staff. As strange as the answer might seem it held the information I was looking for

    I see magicaxeman has edited his reply.. His unedited reply was where my experience of this forum started to go down hill fast. His words were "Why are you worrying about whether the camera has an AA filter or not". If someone asks a question like that and indicates that there are contradictions in reviews its a really good indicator that the person isn't worrying but rather they are seeking clarity.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  18. CWRailman

    CWRailman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    564
    Jun 2, 2015
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Denny
    You have yet to say why the lack of an AA filter is important to you. Several years ago I found that at the time there were several different types of AA filters and some may impact what you are trying to achieve such as absolute image sharpness while others will have little to no impact on the type of photography you are attempting.

    IE, I seldom worry about moiré but I do require absolute sharpness in my product shots so lack of a AA filter that imparts slight blurring is important hence the reason I purchased a Pentax K-5IIs.

    By the way, just purchasing or owning a A7rm2 does not make you a good or knowledgeable photographer any more than buying a Ferrari makes you a race car driver or means you have the skill set to properly drive that vehicle. I have five sets of golf clubs here in my home and though I have played golf for over 55 years, held memberships at several different golf courses and think I know how to use them it does not make me a professional and on some days not even a very good amateur. Just because you own something does not mean you know how to properly use it. It just means you had a big enough wallet to buy the item. Folks here are just trying to help you or maybe you are more experienced and can help us.