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All these OM-D vs A7 comparisons

Discussion in 'Other Systems' started by With_Eyes_Unclouded, Oct 18, 2013.

  1. With_Eyes_Unclouded

    With_Eyes_Unclouded Mu-43 All-Pro

    Apr 17, 2012
    Vassilios
    I will admit I feel rather awkward about all the current threads comparing the E-M1 (mainly) against the latest Sony cameras. Please allow me to elaborate.

    Most people base their comparisons in either IQ, weight/size and price to value; frankly, mainly the latter. In other words "can I get better IQ, at approx. the same weight/size and comparable cost, by choosing the Sony?"

    My opinion is, at this point, these comparisons are erroneous, for the following reasons:

    1. At least for now, the Sony FE-mount cameras are hardly in the same category as the E-M1, if we base the comparison on features. It's something like comparing a D800 or D600 (Sony) with a D300 (Oly) or similar.

      This leads to a number of misconceptions. For example, a Sony with the same level of construction (whole body alloy vs some parts), same FPS, large RAW buffer, etc, would be (a) larger although probably not heavier and (b) MUCH more expensive. And I'm not even going into in body IS.

      The critical question is: does one need these E-M1 features? Because a lot of people will buy the Olympus as an upgrade simply because it is the latest and best overall of :43: cameras, but they might not fully use its really useful features. So perhaps we shouldn't compare the Sonys with the E-M1 but rather a camera like the GX7?
    2. The cameras are definitely not at the same price range, not even close.

      In European prices, I estimated (rather roughly, I have to say) the cost of the A7R + 24-70 f/4 lens + 55mm f/1.8 + 35mm f/2.8 + vertical grip at about 5,500€.

      The cost of a comparably featured E-M1 kit with 12-40 f/2.8 kit lens + Panasonic 25mm f/1.4 + Oly 17mm f/1.8 + vertical grip comes at about 3,400€. You can save about 1100 on the Sonys by substituting the A7R and f/4 zoom with the A7 + slower kit zoom.

      And, yes, the bold typeface on the apertures above are to show that the Olympus at least has a fighting chance at matching equivalence. And I'm not even going into in body IS.

      Sure, a number of people will argue using Sony adapters for Alpha lenses (which make the whole deal a lot heavier/bulkier), or even adapters for manual lenses (which makes the system a specialized Leica replacement digital back).

      My whole argument is: the E-M1 is much cheaper, as a system. At least for now. And, even if cost was closer between the two systems: how much do you think a future Nikon D400 will cost? My bet is closer to the D800 than the D610.
    3. We are not buying a camera we are buying (into) a system.

      A :43: is not limited to the E-M1 or whatever the latest :43: body is. The same (dozens) of lenses can be used on a smaller body or a body with a different set of prefered features.

      If one tries to compare whole systems (of course, Sony FE is hardly a "system" now, but it will be sooner or later), again it makes no sense. There is no way we can have a FF equivalent of the Panasonic GM1, or a E-PL5. Not to mention it will take several years, for Sony to match :43: lens selection.

    My whole point is, there is no meaningful comparison between these cameras and, indeed, systems. For some people the Sonys may be an alternative to :43:. This means, IMHO, that :43: was too much of a compromise in the first place. For others they can be a complementary system, and that's very cool. But, IMO, a direct comparison makes no sense overall.
     
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  2. rbelyell

    rbelyell Mu-43 Veteran

    356
    Sep 15, 2013
    Mountains of NY
    i drive a WRX. i love it. its a performance car, a real beast. 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, beats anything under $100,000. but it aint no ferrari. comparing them would only make me look silly.
     
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  3. With_Eyes_Unclouded

    With_Eyes_Unclouded Mu-43 All-Pro

    Apr 17, 2012
    Vassilios
    Of course it's not. Try driving the Ferrari through traffic. Try driving it on even moderately rough tarmac. Try driving the kids to school in a Ferrari or going to the grocery store. The Subaru can do all that with ease and still give you a lot of thrills on a twisty road.

    Horses for courses. :wink:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. rbelyell

    rbelyell Mu-43 Veteran

    356
    Sep 15, 2013
    Mountains of NY
    my car fantasy is to drive to the grocery store in a ferrari.
     
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  5. dornblaser

    dornblaser Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 13, 2012
    Chicago-area
    David Dornblaser
    I think many of us have or want more than one system. Speaking only for myself, I have been taking along hard look at the Fuji X-Pro1 and Leica systems to be a second system to my :43: system. The X7 hits sweet spot of FF and being inexpensive. I have participated in the A7 threads on this board rather than on a Sony forum because I feel comfortable and respect a lot of the members here. I am fully invested in :43: for my everyday, travel, and, now video needs. That does not mean that I won't kick the tires of sexy, new camera that comes in a form factor that is close to :43: , well the body at least.

    P.S. - Ferrari is so last year, Tesla is the car now.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. MAubrey

    MAubrey Photographer

    Jul 9, 2012
    Bellingham, WA
    Mike Aubrey
    ^This
    And ^this, too.
     
  7. goldenlight

    goldenlight Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 30, 2010
    Essex
    John
    Whilst we in :43: land wrestle with what the A7 & A7R mean to us, I wonder what Sony NEX owners make of it all, especially as it seems that this new full frame range is replacing the NEX.
     
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  8. With_Eyes_Unclouded

    With_Eyes_Unclouded Mu-43 All-Pro

    Apr 17, 2012
    Vassilios
    :thumbup:

    To prevent anyone from assuming I'm somehow trying to "defend" :43: in this thread, far from it... I keep reading in fora and in videos "will this mark the end of :43:?". Honestly: bull****, and pardon my French. What I'm trying to say, I guess, is, people making these assumptions don't have a clue what :43: as a system really represents.

    To make things even clearer, I'd love to have the A7R as a second system, for specific applications, like portrait and editorial shootings. That is, IF they had native, logical size/weight and not astonisingly expensive 85mm and 135mm fast primes available (plus the 24-70 f/4 zoom which is roughly OK by me). They don't and I'm not justifying the cost (at this point) for being forced to use adapted/manual lenses. But YMMV as always.

    PS: I'm the exact opposite about cars relating to cameras: I'd rather have a snappy but comfortable and practical Ford, Toyota or Honda as my everyday driver, PLUS a Caterham 7 for trackdays and the occassional mountain roads blast; horses for courses, as I said.
     
  9. wjiang

    wjiang Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Their lenses are fully compatible in crop or vignette mode :D
     
  10. goldenlight

    goldenlight Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 30, 2010
    Essex
    John
    And that makes it OK? :confused:
     
  11. With_Eyes_Unclouded

    With_Eyes_Unclouded Mu-43 All-Pro

    Apr 17, 2012
    Vassilios
    What he said:

    So perhaps a more comfortable transition?

    But this brings another question: is :43: really "in danger", or, rather, the APS-C mirrorless cameras.

    Because they seem to enjoy only a relative cost benefit but no serious size/weight benefit overall, vs FF mirrorless, if we consider a full system.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. rbelyell

    rbelyell Mu-43 Veteran

    356
    Sep 15, 2013
    Mountains of NY
    it aint a car if you cant hear it comin' a few minutes before you can see it! ):

    as for the sony, its a stunning stunning product--so earth shattering in fact that it has caused me to reevaluate every piece of gear i have. i will be keeping my m4/3 and lenses. everything else but my biotar 75/1.5 and future biogon 35/2.0 is up for grabs! if its as advertised, there is nothing remotely close that i'd rather shoot legacy glass with. its the kind of camera you only want to use with one or two of the best lenses out there and concentrate on living up to the promise of the equipment. i will have a 2-3 lens manual focus kit to use with it for the next X years, m4/3 as my AF discreet street rig. thats all she wrote for me.
     
  13. goldenlight

    goldenlight Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 30, 2010
    Essex
    John
    I really do think these Sonys are more of a threat to APS-C systems, there's enough difference between Full Frame and :43: for them to be complimentary rather than truely competetive.
     
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  14. pen2omd

    pen2omd Mu-43 Regular

    46
    Jul 29, 2013
    California
    I second that. APS-C is the one in danger. If one consider that the flagships for Nikon, Canon and Sony are their respective FF camera. As a result APS-C lenses are a second thought. Except for some independent brand like Sigma or Tokina (I am thinking 11-16 f2.8 here).

    I am considering the A7(R) for use with a couple of long tele that are somewhat too long on mu-43 for portrait.
     
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  15. drd1135

    drd1135 Zen Snapshooter

    Mar 17, 2011
    Southwest Virginia
    Steve
    Think of it this way. Those with a mu43 system have already passed on a bigger sensor, the APS-C, for reasons of size and acknowledging the notion of "good enough". I'm not sure the APS-C group won't jump as soon as FF becomes affordable.
     
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  16. kevinparis

    kevinparis Cantankerous Scotsman

    Feb 12, 2010
    Gent, Belgium
    In all these gadfly mentality discussions about new gear or switching platform, I always wonder whether the participants are always entirely comfortable about the prime purpose of their photography, and whether the deficits they see in their photography are really based on a perceived deficiency in the equipment they are using or is more fundamental to their photography skills.

    Over the last 7 years I have bought...and still have....5 cameras...1 4/3, 1 ff canon and 4 micro 4/3 cameras.

    In retrospect the Canon 5D MK 2 is the one that progressed my photography the least...I got some fine shots with it, but looking back, they are shots I could have done with any camera I currently have. I also have had the opportunity to shoot with all the digital M's except the very latest M. Again, some nice shots, but nothing that fundamentally changed my photography.

    I fully accept that there are people in this forum with greater knowledge and experience, and the ability to judge clearly whether a new camera or platform is of benefit to them for their photography.

    I am just not sure that the majority of the gadflies have reached this level of nirvana.

    I am just a hobby photographer....though I do think I work hard at creating images that interest me and as far as I can tell also seem to interest others. My work is visible here on this forum and on my flickr page in my sig

    I have committed to micro 4/3 because it delivers as much if not more image quality than I would ever expect to need, and all in a package that makes creating images a pleasure.

    It's always good to look at the alternatives....but truth is that in the end the only thing that will take better photographs is you....cameras will come and go, but the photographers skill will always remain and hopefully improve

    Anyway.... Just my thoughts

    K
     
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  17. MAubrey

    MAubrey Photographer

    Jul 9, 2012
    Bellingham, WA
    Mike Aubrey
    I hear you, Kevin.

    As one who is seriously considering the A7, I'll comment.

    Some of my favorite photos, I took with a G2. One of them is coming back from the printer this next week in an 18x24. I'm incredibly excited. It's a landscape taken in the wilderness of British Columbia. I don't know if it would really look any better with my newer E-M5 or my Canon FF that I refused to take up a mountain--any mountain.

    Originally I had a vision of an E-M5 along with the Canon FF as a complementary pair, but the more I used the E-M5 the less appealing the Canon become. I see the A7 as giving that original vision a second chance. Because I certainly view the two sensors sizes as complementary. Even if the size and weight of the Canon hindered that possibility for my purposes. It won't improve my photography, I'm sure. But I think it will work well along my E-M5 for what I do and enjoy. I think that's what matters.
     
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  18. kevinparis

    kevinparis Cantankerous Scotsman

    Feb 12, 2010
    Gent, Belgium
    Mike
    Completely with you on the enjoy aspect...and I fully accept that there are situations that a larger sensor and more pixels do offer advantages and indeed we should all be allowed to explore those.

    I cannot deny the idea of a ff small mirror less body has a certain appeal, especially to some one with a drawer full of quite nice and usually quite small classic legacy MF lenses

    8720385680_689798be04_b.
    P5080009 by kevinparis, on Flickr

    8719263519_f5371e9c1a_b.
    P5080012 by kevinparis, on Flickr

    8719263657_c6a7d76a49_b.
    P5080017 by kevinparis, on Flickr

    However as a complete platform....an everyday go anywhere/do anything/high quality image taking device the Sony has a long way to go.

    The greater buying public don't care about sensor size...they will not flock to this...it's a fine platform for a certain kind of enthusiast..but suspect that the micro 4/3 platform...if they can just effing market it will gain traction

    K
     

    Attached Files:

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  19. goldenlight

    goldenlight Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 30, 2010
    Essex
    John
    I feel that this is very important. I'm strictly an amateur and therefore under no pressure to please anyone but myself, so the emphasis for my hobby has to be the enjoyment it brings me. Another camera system may well give me exponentially better quality, enabling me to make prints twice the size, but what would that matter if I wasn't enjoying using it? I like :43:, it suits me and using it brings me much pleasure. Of course, there may well be other systems which I would enjoy even more, if only I would try them, but quite apart from all the time it takes to become familiar with a new system it's a financial impossibility for me.

    I can fully appreciate the attraction of these new diminutive full frame cameras from Sony but why should I risk losing the enjoyment I get from my current kit for the uncertainty of another system, which is only guaranteed to give me extra quality that I don't need? I think there comes a time when you need to settle on a system that suits you for the long haul and not fall into the all that glitters IQ trap. Sure, 36mp full frame is bound to give me significantly better IQ, but I passed my personal threshold for quality long ago with the 10mp Olympus E-510 (which still produces startlingly good JPEGs in the hands of my wife) and all the improvements I have benefitted from since have been a welcome but unnecessary bonus.
     
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  20. flash

    flash Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Apr 29, 2010
    1 hour from Sydney Australia.
    Gordon
    I"m comparing them because the Sony A7 and A7r may be the end of m4/3 for me. The EM1 is a sensational camera. A little D4. Super performance. Built like a tank. But in a tiny body.

    The A7r is like a tiny D800e. Lots of information. Great files. But doesn't perform like a D4.

    If I were to buy any DSLR today it would be a D800e. So, while the EM1 and m4/3 in general are a brilliant system. The Sony *may* be the system I have waited for. I have 8-10 m4/3 lenses. Some for versatility. Some for optics and speed. If the Sony f4 zooms are good then I replace 6 of those lenses with 2. The SOny lenses may be bigger as individuals but in my kit, I won't have a new change. And I'll get virtually the same DOF control as I have now in my m43 primes, in a zoom.

    I've been really happy with m4/3. And until now it's been the best compromise for my needs. But I'm due for an upgrade. I have to decide between the performance of an EM1 and the files of an A7.

    Both choices involve compromises. I just want to be sure I make the least compromises for me.

    Gordon
     
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