Alert : EM5 Mk3 Release this year - it’s (well nearly) official

[mawz]

Well, the Olympus lens roadmap isn’t divided into Zuiko, L-glass and Pro. It’s Zuiko regular and Zuiko Pro and nothing like the f/4 Canon L series is or has ever been indicated. It’s a two tier system. You keep arguing it’s a 3 tier system and the OEM shows only 2 tiers. So, no, the Olympus lineup has never matched the DSLR or SLR lines. You’re not going to see a $500 2x zoom that costs Olympus 40-150 Pro customers, all for 1 stop. Makes no marketing sense in a dramatically shrinking market where pressure is likely in to reduce models, not add them. And comparing to Nikon is apt as they’re in the midst of dramatically pruning their lens line and have shut both their China plant and 1 of their 2 Thai plants. Both Nikon and Canon MILC are showing a two-tier lens structure as well. Not enough market for three. No need.

Canon already has a 3 tier line in the R system (albeit they've only got one mid-tier lens right now, the RF 24-105 f4L, but 2 consumer lenses and a bunch of high-end L glass). Nikon has been quite vocal that the S lenses are high-grade lenses and consumer glass will follow for Z mount once they have a consumer level body (they consider the Z6 to be comparable to the D750 and a step up from the consumer-level D6x0 line). Sony does 3 tier as well (actually 4 tier as you have FE, G, GM and ZA lenses from them, although GM and ZA mix to fill one tier)

While Olympus may not differentiate on the roadmap between their Regular and Premium lines anymore, this differentiation existed for a long while (and is still on the website) and includes all the f1.8 primes as Premium lenses (IIRC the 9-18, 12-50 and 14-150 all are 'Premium'), the differentiation is clearly there in the pricing and specs across the regular line. They have the cheap kit lenses (the two 14-42's, the 40-150R and the 30 Macro). They have the Premium line of lenses (yes, it's even listed on their website at https://www.getolympus.com/us/en/mzuiko ) and they have the Pro line.

The reality is the guys who want that compact $500 tele zoom are far more likely to either settle for the $99 40-150 than buy & carry the $1299 40-150 Pro boat anchor, or they'll buy the FAR smaller & lighter Panasonic 35-100/2.8, or they may go with the similar sized and sealed Panasonic 45-200 II. It's not just about a stop. It's about size & weight & sealing. The 40-150 Pro may be a brilliant lens, but it's big and heavy in a system where small & light is supposed to be the selling point. A mid-range in here saves Oly from leakers, it's not going to cost sales of a lens these buyers don't want in the first place.

What you are more likely to see is upgraded kit stuff (plain old Zuiko) from Olympus with weather sealing and a higher price (how Pentax sort of stayed viable) allowing for better revenues, buy ups by current mid-range users, and long term differentiation from smartphones, and maybe better video options. There is simply no market space for a middle tier constant f/4. They can’t grow the user base and such a line would take purchases away from the f/2.8 zooms.

Olympus has a damned good kit lineup and no need to spend any time there right now. The Pro lineup is set aside from some needed gap filling in the super tele range and maybe a ~100mm macro. But in between the two is a complete mess. The 14-150 II is great, but the rest needs to be revisited. The majority of the market is simply not going to buy $800+ lenses and Oly isn't offering anything realistic in that huge gap between the $100-ish lenses (either new or in a kit) and the $800+ Pro lenses.

This is most obvious with the 40-150's where there's a $1200 gap in price between the two. The reality is today that Oly simply doesn't offer a telezoom for the user who wants good build and reasonable weight. They don't offer a mid-range zoom for the user who wants better than kit optics or faster, and while the UWA offering is almost there, it needs sealing to be a good match for the E-M5, and has needed this since the original E-M5 launched.

Right now Oly's entry in that space is the 12-50 and the 9-18. Neither quite meet the needs of this space (the 12-50 is too slow and not good enough optically, the 9-18 lacks sealing that it should have got 4-5 years ago).

Panasonic gets this much better and unsurprisingly their lens lineup shows this. They have their cheap kit 14-42 and 45-150, the ultra-compact 12-32/35-100 pair (for the GX bodies that Oly currently lacks a direct analog to), the splashproof 12-60 and 45-200 set (this is their mid-range, and it's a good one, even if variable aperture), then 2 'Pro' level kits, the small/video oriented 12-35/2.8 and 35-100/2.8 and the PL 8-18/12-60/50-200 trio. All Panasonic really misses is iterating the older 7-14/4 to be splashproof.

 

[AussiePhil]

I don't know a single Oly shooter personally who owns it, as it's pro-level priced and pretty much needs either an E-M1 or a gripped E-M5 for handling. It does what it does very well, but it's a lot of money for a do-everything lens and most folks who want to never take their zoom off are consumers who bought a 14-150.

Seriously the 12-100 is a quite popular item, it's easy to find people on the forum who have one and it's arguably the ultimate travel lens.
Consumers who are happy with the kit lens or the 14-150 are not the target audience and they are not likely to buy it. The target audience is the 12-40/40150 pro combination or one of them and they want a more convenient lens for general use rather than swapping lens during a day.

It really comes into its own as a rough condition lens, where you can't be swapping lenses due to conditions and need that extra reach without giving up Pro level optical quality.

Or as the general purpose walk around all day travel lens.... it's really not heavy as far as lens that cover that focal range and it has pro quality in image and use.

IMost Oly shooters I know are still using the 12-40+40-150 combo at the high end, or have moved to the new PL f2.8-4's.

Now i do think you need to get out more ..... large numbers of 12-40 people have swapped out to get or added in a 12-100 as it has the same image quality and greater versatility.
Personally i never owned the 12-40 as i considered it far to short on the long end.... the 12-60SWD was a far better option for me and generally the 40-150Pro gets far more use
I will say the PL zooms are nice but after the PL100-400 repair issues i will not own one any time soon.

 

[AussiePhil]

Really? The m43 lens lineup has generally resembled larger formats almost exactly, either matching up with FF lens designs in terms of range (24-80 equivalent), or in a few cases matching up with the end result of a FF lens on APS-C (the 40-150 for example is quite close to what you get using a 70-200 on APS-C, albeit with a touch more wide end). The only real exception for that is the 12-100 and 12-200 and those are very new.

Sigh.... all the lens lines for the more common ranges date way back into the film era and exist more because that is the default range that people are used to than anything else
the 24-70 is covered by the 12-40
the 70-200/80-210 is covered by the 40-150 or now by the 12-100 with extended wide angle.
From 24mm up the Oly zooms tend to offer extended ranges in comparison to the main stream lens....

The reality is that UWA zooms are very popular and generally are the third zoom most users buy

I'd like to see that backed up by sales data... UWA's are a specialty lens now matter how you cut it or how popular you think they are.... levels, convergence, etc all require care in use

Nikon doesn't have a consumer lens out for the Z mount yet, they also don't have a consumer body.

Well the current Z bodies are not Pro bodies so they must be Consumer bodies.... just not cheap ones.

I consider the E-M1X to be a one-off as well, standing beside the basic lineup as a pure specialty body, like Fuji's X-H1. It doesn't fit in the regular OM-D line as it has a different design focus. Unlike the D5 or the 1DX, the E-M1X isn't actually head & shoulders above the E-M1.2 in terms of performance, it's just got some (good) tweaks and that big body optimized for use on the big Pro lenses

It may be a speciality body but i doubt it is planned as a one off and as for performance, it may not be head and shoulders above the EM1.2FW3.1 but it's performance generally is more than a significant boost above but you need to use one as the spec sheets do not reflect the improvements in the user experience of the genuine Pro level body.

To at least have a line that's on topic.....

The em5.3 should take a leapfrog over the EM1 range and give us something special... the pricing though if that happens will be at least equal to if not greater then the EM1.2 and the complaints will flow....
Oly is likely to give us the EM1.2 in a smaller body and make the price the same anyway.....

 

[AussiePhil]

Yes we apparently have a different understanding of one-off. But by your definition is the E-M1x a one off? Or is it the top of the OMD line the same way the Nikon D5 and Canon 1DX are the top of there DSLR lines.

I my opinion is the evolutionary top of the line model just like the D5/1DX2..... and I hope we see a EM1Xmk2 at a future date

 

[Aristophanes]

Canon already has a 3 tier line in the R system (albeit they've only got one mid-tier lens right now, the RF 24-105 f4L, but 2 consumer lenses and a bunch of high-end L glass). Nikon has been quite vocal that the S lenses are high-grade lenses and consumer glass will follow for Z mount once they have a consumer level body (they consider the Z6 to be comparable to the D750 and a step up from the consumer-level D6x0 line). Sony does 3 tier as well (actually 4 tier as you have FE, G, GM and ZA lenses from them, although GM and ZA mix to fill one tier)

While Olympus may not differentiate on the roadmap between their Regular and Premium lines anymore, this differentiation existed for a long while (and is still on the website) and includes all the f1.8 primes as Premium lenses (IIRC the 9-18, 12-50 and 14-150 all are 'Premium'), the differentiation is clearly there in the pricing and specs across the regular line. They have the cheap kit lenses (the two 14-42's, the 40-150R and the 30 Macro). They have the Premium line of lenses (yes, it's even listed on their website at https://www.getolympus.com/us/en/mzuiko ) and they have the Pro line.

The reality is the guys who want that compact $500 tele zoom are far more likely to either settle for the $99 40-150 than buy & carry the $1299 40-150 Pro boat anchor, or they'll buy the FAR smaller & lighter Panasonic 35-100/2.8, or they may go with the similar sized and sealed Panasonic 45-200 II. It's not just about a stop. It's about size & weight & sealing. The 40-150 Pro may be a brilliant lens, but it's big and heavy in a system where small & light is supposed to be the selling point. A mid-range in here saves Oly from leakers, it's not going to cost sales of a lens these buyers don't want in the first place.



Olympus has a damned good kit lineup and no need to spend any time there right now. The Pro lineup is set aside from some needed gap filling in the super tele range and maybe a ~100mm macro. But in between the two is a complete mess. The 14-150 II is great, but the rest needs to be revisited. The majority of the market is simply not going to buy $800+ lenses and Oly isn't offering anything realistic in that huge gap between the $100-ish lenses (either new or in a kit) and the $800+ Pro lenses.

This is most obvious with the 40-150's where there's a $1200 gap in price between the two. The reality is today that Oly simply doesn't offer a telezoom for the user who wants good build and reasonable weight. They don't offer a mid-range zoom for the user who wants better than kit optics or faster, and while the UWA offering is almost there, it needs sealing to be a good match for the E-M5, and has needed this since the original E-M5 launched.

Right now Oly's entry in that space is the 12-50 and the 9-18. Neither quite meet the needs of this space (the 12-50 is too slow and not good enough optically, the 9-18 lacks sealing that it should have got 4-5 years ago).

Panasonic gets this much better and unsurprisingly their lens lineup shows this. They have their cheap kit 14-42 and 45-150, the ultra-compact 12-32/35-100 pair (for the GX bodies that Oly currently lacks a direct analog to), the splashproof 12-60 and 45-200 set (this is their mid-range, and it's a good one, even if variable aperture), then 2 'Pro' level kits, the small/video oriented 12-35/2.8 and 35-100/2.8 and the PL 8-18/12-60/50-200 trio. All Panasonic really misses is iterating the older 7-14/4 to be splashproof.

Olympus isn’t Canon. It has less than 10% the market share.

You have 3 mid-price Olympus options for a tele-zoom. 12-200, 14-150, and the 75-300. Add in the do-it-all f/4 constant 12-100 Pro and you have the coverage suggested. And look at the weather sealed f/4 Pro and the Panny 35-10/2.8. That’s your middle tier, L-glass equivalents in scope and price and form factor. Variable aperture is pretty much the domain of low and mid-tier.

Again, the Olympus road map shows nothing like what’s being suggested in this discussion. Either Olympus won’t duplicate Panasonic (and vice versa) in some agreement, or it’s simply not economical, taking too much revenue from the high-end for minimal margin. The entire strategy for all camera makers now is to upscale and up-sell. That means more differentiation between product lines.

Across the broader industry there has been a trend towards all-in-one zooms. Their quality and utility has increased considerably. They are very popular and have been known as “body sellers”. The concept of “classic” 3 lens normative kits is actually complex, expensive, and what many consumers don’t want. As Thom Hogan regularly notes when looking at sales, many ILC buyers never change lenses. Olympus zeroed in on this trend now with 3 models bracketing options and price points. My local camera store confirms. What sold the EM1.2 was the 12-100/4. That combo attracted people who had no intention of buying any other zoom and maybe 1 prime...done! One comprehensive zoom and 1-2 primes is a very, very common kit. Telephoto long and WA are specialties that vignette the majority of the market. The bell curve of the hobbyist market would likely be very happy with a 12-100 and a low light prime or 2.

The evisceration of the low end makes it far more likely that the “kit” items get revised upward. They do need a rework such as weather sealing, but not constant aperture. It’s pretty obvious that constant aperture is either prime or Pro in Olympus speak. Given the collapsing market, we are likely to see a dramatic slowdown in development regardless.

 

[TNcasual]

I can't believe that Olympus hasn't hired everyone out of this thread. It seems like you all know more than their R&D, marketers and managers combined.

 

[hazwing]

Apparently the em5 mk3 delayed until october now (43rumors).

I suspect/hope they are delaying it, because they are trying to make it really good/competitive against other cameras in the similar market.

 

[RyanM]

Apparently the em5 mk3 delayed until october now (43rumors).

I suspect/hope they are delaying it, because they are trying to make it really good/competitive against other cameras in the similar market.

Unfortunately the longer they wait, the better it'll have to be to make a splash. I hope they succeed and surprise us with something exceptional. Though even if it's an EM1mkII in an EM5 chassis, I'll probably own one eventually: when just depends on the price.

 

[drd1135]

I totally disagree about the 12-100 being a niche lens. Every Oly owner I know has one of these. To me, a niche lens is the 300mm and a fisheye.

This would make an interesting survey.

 

[Drdave944]

Why don't they change the title of this discussion? I keep thinking it might have something to do with the much anticipated EM-5 III. Oh. also that 12-100 F-4 lens is a killer,since you get unbelievable IS.

 

[drd1135]

Why don't they change the title of this discussion? I keep thinking it might have something to do with the much anticipated EM-5 III. Oh. also that 12-100 F-4 lens is a killer,since you get unbelievable IS.

This is what happens to threads when everyone is interested but no new info is coming.

 

[RAH]

Most Oly shooters I know are still using the 12-40+40-150 combo at the high end, or have moved to the new PL f2.8-4's.

Yes, I agree. I was using a PL 12-35 f2.8 and recently switched to the newer PL 12-60 f2.8-4. The difference in size between the 12-60 and that 12-100 is quite a lot and I cannot imagine carrying a big lens like the 12-100 just to ge the extra 60-100 reach. For a do-all kit-replacement type lens, the PL 12-60 is the way to go, IMHO.

 

[n3eg]

They said they will announce it after October. That means they will be announcing it in March.

 

[FrayAdjacent]

Unfortunately the longer they wait, the better it'll have to be to make a splash. I hope they succeed and surprise us with something exceptional. Though even if it's an EM1mkII in an EM5 chassis, I'll probably own one eventually: when just depends on the price.

This is true. I'm really preparing myself to be underwhelmed. Stuffing the EM1MkII in the chassis of the EM5 would be a huge letdown to me. There would be no reason to buy it instead of just buying a used EM1MkII instead.

There is some amazing competition in what the price range will likely be. Olympus can't afford to underwhelm.

 

[RyanM]

There would be no reason to buy it instead of just buying a used EM1MkII instead.

You mean, other than the significantly smaller and lighter body? That seems like a feature that is important to many, particular m43 users who are probably more concerned with size/weight than most. It seems like you're expecting the EM5mkIII to be the EM1mkIII (i.e. a new flagship model where new tech is debuted).

Your broader point that the competition is fierce I totally agree with though.

 

[joerg218]

Maybe they have to develop all the new killer features for the Mark III before they release it. It's done when it's done. But i hope someday it will finally released

 

[pake]

Soooo... Canon announced stuff yesterday. How's that relevant one might ask. Well... The thing is that they released a new E-M6... no wait...! EOS M6 which has a 32.5MP sensor and a price tag of $850. Sure, it doesn't have an built-in EVF and it's not weathersealed but eeeeverybody knows sensor size is all that counts (yeah right). Anyway. I think it's reasonably priced. Hopefully Olympus realizes they simply cannot charge $1500 for the new E-M5III. I still think the average shooter will appreciate the sensor size and pixel count more than e.g. weather sealing so the pricing will be crucial if E-M5III were to succeed.

 

[speedy]

I think people are dreaming of they think that they're going to get a high tech EM5 3 for cheaper. Olympus had that chance with the premium priced EM1X, and what did they give? Recycled sensor, recycled EVF, a bit more processing and some rewritten code. They really backed themselves into a corner with that one I think. How to p!ss your customers off -offer a higher end product a few months down the track, for a 30% discount. That will do it.

 

[Bushboy]

Liking the new canon powershot stuff.
I’m thinking seriously about switching back.

 

[FrayAdjacent]

I think people are dreaming of they think that they're going to get a high tech EM5 3 for cheaper. Olympus had that chance with the premium priced EM1X, and what did they give? Recycled sensor, recycled EVF, a bit more processing and some rewritten code. They really backed themselves into a corner with that one I think. How to p!ss your customers off -offer a higher end product a few months down the track, for a 30% discount. That will do it.

Yep, the E-M1X kinda not really doing a lot of 'new' stuff really has me preparing to be underwhelmed with the E-M5 MkIII.