Advice on SSD/HDs, please

BrentC

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Everyone should invest in a NAS these days and use RAID. They are too useful and critical for backups. And recommend not to use SSD. HD are cheap these days. I use my NAS for backing up my laptop and computers, photos, important documents. Also use it to stream my music, and movie library.
I would never use SSD as backup storage.
 

PakkyT

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Everyone should invest in a NAS these days and use RAID. They are too useful and critical for backups.

And more expensive if you don't need all that and your backup needs are simple. Also, while a RAID can be used as a backup "drive", RAID itself is NOT a backup of itself. Redundancy is not the same as backup, a mistaken assumption people often make when they hear a RAID can make redundant copies of your data across two or more drives in the RAID.
 

threeOh

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I guess I have a bit different attitude.

I use ssd's for all primary drives and backup. In 37 years of computing, my only loss of data was with a cloud service that couldn’t produce the redundant copy they were supposed to have. Don’t bother asking who, go to a Microsoft developers conference and you'll hear horror stories about all of them.

Off site consists of 2 GB (gigabyte) of data on an encrypted DNG written to an SD card in a bank safe deposit box. Actually there's 2 of them, rotated each year. That’s what I need to continue my life in the manner I’m accustomed to.

I run clones so if an ssd does implode (never has) I’m back up and running in the time it takes to reboot over Thunderbolt from an ssd.

I like speed, forget about NAS and sleeping spinners, or any spinners for that matter. RAID's not backup, it’s more complexity, often designed to make spinners faster. When an ssd would suffice.

The home does have distributed media with a Mac acting as the server. 14 TB of media, none backed up. Not being able to watch tv isn’t all that bad. Pics get backed up on the primary ssd's. All the high rated music is in the iPods permanently ensconced in the cars.

My house sits in an active hurricane zone. The back door sits about 50’ from the water line of an inland waterway about a mile from the harbor entrance. Lose everything? Life goes on just fine.
 

BrentC

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And more expensive if you don't need all that and your backup needs are simple. Also, while a RAID can be used as a backup "drive", RAID itself is NOT a backup of itself. Redundancy is not the same as backup, a mistaken assumption people often make when they hear a RAID can make redundant copies of your data across two or more drives in the RAID.


NAS are not that expensive. Drives are cheap. The enclosure is a one time cost and will last you a long time, a lot longer than your computer or laptop. I have two NAS, one is about 15 years old, my newest NAS is about 9 years old and both running strong.
And yes RAID is not backup but why bother having backup if there is no redundancy? Makes no absolutely no sense. I have a drive fail and I don't lose data, just replace drive.
You can keep buying a bunch USB drives for backup. I know someone who has over 20 of them. They just keep adding up. And what happens when one dies?
And if you are a little tech savvy, all you need is an old computer and run FreeNAS, its free, and build your own NAS very cheaply. A 10 year old computer would work fine for it.
I know too many people who have cried because they lost all their photos or sensitive data. Spending some money on a NAS is more than worth it and it has many uses. My computers are set to back up every night automatically.
And your whole household can access the NAS on the network and everyones data is safe.

When I travel I have a couple USB SSD drives. I use those for my photos and LR. When I come back I just plug in the USB drive to my NAS and it automatically backs it up.

The money is more than worth spending to have piece of mind that all your devices and data is backed up and can handle a failed drive. There is no reason in this day and age to lose data.
 

BrentC

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I guess I have a bit different attitude.

I use ssd's for all primary drives and backup. In 37 years of computing, my only loss of data was with a cloud service that couldn’t produce the redundant copy they were supposed to have. Don’t bother asking who, go to a Microsoft developers conference and you'll hear horror stories about all of them.

Off site consists of 2 GB (gigabyte) of data on an encrypted DNG written to an SD card in a bank safe deposit box. Actually there's 2 of them, rotated each year. That’s what I need to continue my life in the manner I’m accustomed to.

I run clones so if an ssd does implode (never has) I’m back up and running in the time it takes to reboot over Thunderbolt from an ssd.

I like speed, forget about NAS and sleeping spinners, or any spinners for that matter. RAID's not backup, it’s more complexity, often designed to make spinners faster. When an ssd would suffice.

The home does have distributed media with a Mac acting as the server. 14 TB of media, none backed up. Not being able to watch tv isn’t all that bad. Pics get backed up on the primary ssd's. All the high rated music is in the iPods permanently ensconced in the cars.

My house sits in an active hurricane zone. The back door sits about 50’ from the water line of an inland waterway about a mile from the harbor entrance. Lose everything? Life goes on just fine.


I laugh every time someone says "In all my years..."

SSD is fine for for USB drive and deivces. Of course you want fast. NAS is backup or for streaming and sharing data. You don't need fast. But it is plenty fast enough. You are not running an OS from your NAS. The cost for a NAS ends up being a much cheaper solution then what most think.
 

dancebert

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I have very limited knowledge as to what goes for current these days, and after a week of googling I am at a loss for what is going on, and some articles on SSD failure rate is rather ,, including posts on here are bleak, to say at least, other are more neutral and some sings the SSDs price.
That was me about a year ago when deciding whether to convert my PC from 2 big HDDs to a SSD for the operating systems (dual boot Win and Linux) and apps, plus the 2 HDDs for data. I found reputable sources stating changes in SSD technology made them more reliable. So I bought Two 256GB SSDs, one for the PC and one for a USB caddy. Everytime after I update Windows I clone the PC drive to the one in the caddy, which is the only use it gets. If and when the PC SSD dies, I'll have a recent backup.
 

PakkyT

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And yes RAID is not backup but why bother having backup if there is no redundancy? Makes no absolutely no sense. I have a drive fail and I don't lose data, just replace drive.

Redundant backups means other backup devices that are NOT part of the same device (it kills me when people by large HDs, partition it, then have one partition back up the other partition). If your RAID exploded, you should have another redundant backup somewhere that has the same data as your RAID did.

Yes, when a drive in a RAID dies you can replace just that drive and the RAID will recreate all the data lost in the failed drive (if set up for that type of RAID). This will include viruses, corrupt files, not having those files or folders you accidentally deleted from the RAID, etc. Your RAID will continue to work but this does not mean your data on it is actually backed up unless the data on the RAID is also in at least one other place (the main drive of your computer, cloud, other external drive, etc.) that doesn't include the RAID itself.
 

Darmok N Jalad

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I do not trust cloud storage for backup. You need access to the financials to be at all certain of their longevity. Even IBM nearly went broke ...
I’m not sure how big the distinction is, to be honest. If you view cloud storage as another backup option, rather than a singular option, it can then be treated as another drive in your system. Sure, you have no idea if that cloud provider will be around in 2 years, but you could say the same thing about the hard storage you currently have as well. A power spike, house fire, or just an unexpected hardware failure can take out your physical storage at any second. You mitigate that risk by having multiple backups, some connected, some not, but cloud storage can also qualify as “another backup.” It’s a backup solution where risks are still real and present, but they are entirely different than local storage.

I’d much rather use both cloud and local backups than just one or the other, and that’s what I do. That’s just spreading out your risk and even your trust. I remember when Ubuntu offered cloud storage, and when they decided to drop that part of their business, they gave users something like 6 months to retrieve their data before the servers were shut down.
 

BrentC

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Redundant backups means other backup devices that are NOT part of the same device (it kills me when people by large HDs, partition it, then have one partition back up the other partition). If your RAID exploded, you should have another redundant backup somewhere that has the same data as your RAID did.

Yes, when a drive in a RAID dies you can replace just that drive and the RAID will recreate all the data lost in the failed drive (if set up for that type of RAID). This will include viruses, corrupt files, not having those files or folders you accidentally deleted from the RAID, etc. Your RAID will continue to work but this does not mean your data on it is actually backed up unless the data on the RAID is also in at least one other place (the main drive of your computer, cloud, other external drive, etc.) that doesn't include the RAID itself.


Ok, lets make this clear. The NAS is a backup because for the most part I have the same data on my laptops and other devices, as well as USB SSD's that I work from. I BACKUP my data from devices I work from to my NAS, it is a BACKUP. I am not moving data. Like you I have important docs also in SD and SSD drive in safe deposit box, but that data is also on my NAS.
My movies and music are not backed up anywhere else except my NAS. If my NAS box dies I just move my drives into another and away I go. If a Drive fails I just replace without losing any data. The only time I lose anything is if my house burns down to the ground.
The purpose of a NAS is that you can safely store data and not have to worry about failed hardware to lose your data. It also is great to have everyone in your household to access whatever they want from whatever device they want to use.

Now, people are more than welcome to spend a ton of money on multiple expensive SSD drives to backup their data if they want. The fact is SSD is not great to use for backup and too expensive for the use. All laptops and computers in my house work from their local drive but backed up every night.

So yes my NAS is truly a backup. Its much cheaper than SSD, its accessible from anywhere in the world and its more reliable.

Lets not bring viruses into it. Its up to you to protect your devices from viruses. Whether you are using SD, USB SSD or anything else to back up your files they will have the same virus's that you copied over. So please don't make that as an argument against a NAS.


Its up to the individual what they want to do and how far they want to protect their data. A NAS is still one of the most reliable and cost effective way to do this.
 

PakkyT

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Ok, lets make this clear. The NAS is

Umm, my replies were about RAIDs, not NAS (these being the first reply where I used the word NAS).

I see your point in NAS (regardless of its configuration) as it has its benefits to many people if they want it. However RAID for most people on their personal computers where fastest access speed or zero downtime is not critical like it is in a business situation. Yet many people are often told or read into it that RAID is a great backup solution even to the point where they think if everything is only on the RAID the RAID provides a backup for them. You even said everyone should use RAID. I don't think RAID is much benefit for most consumers for the personal stuff and I generally would not recommend RAID just because it is RAID. However if a NAS happens to support RAID and falls in one's budget, go for it to get the NAS part.
 

BrentC

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Umm, my replies were about RAIDs, not NAS (these being the first reply where I used the word NAS).

Fair enough.

RAID on a local device, I agree is not backup. But it does allow for redundancy which can be of help to certain people. But I would never really consider it necessary on a computer or laptop and never have it on mine. Maybe if you were constantly on the road and needed an extra reliable laptop and can't afford to have a drive be done for any time.

All "proper" NAS's support RAID. That really is the main purpose of a NAS, to be reliable storage and not just for data access.

I have been in IT for almost 30 years and have dealt with servers, storage and Enterprise services. I see a lot of people dismiss NAS when suggested to them then watch them spend 5 times as much, or more, money on SSD drives that are just less reliable and have a single point of failure. So I try to educate people that a small investment in one can save a ton of headaches and heartaches later. Plus there is so much use for one.

Have you ever seen a faculty researcher who lost all their research data that they had on their external drive or USB? Or a grad student losing his thesis. Not a pretty sight. Reduces grown adults to a sobbing mess and I have seen it too many times.

Cloud services can become very expensive depending how much data you have. And I just generally don't like using them. But thats just my preference. I like being in control of all my data and how and where it is placed.
 

John King

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I remember when Ubuntu offered cloud storage, and when they decided to drop that part of their business, they gave users something like 6 months to retrieve their data before the servers were shut down.
While I don't disagree about another firm of backup, a liquidator will just hit the kill switch ...

My original data files are about 1.5 TB ...
 

pake

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The fact is SSD is not great to use for backup and too expensive for the use.
Fact? Nope. Fact is that SSDs are FAAAAST and great for backups too since it only takes a few seconds to back up the files from your PC to the external drive and then disconnect the drive and store it somewhere safe. Time is expensive and time is what I'm now saving since I've switched to SSDs.

Too expensive? Naaah, not really if you're using your old SSDs from the PC itself. Basically they're free since they're recycled. I wouldn't spend a dollar on a HDD any more.
 

Stanga

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Having read the comments so far on SSD, here are my findings:
I have two laptops that use a RAID 0 system, and they are fast to boot up or load large programs like Photolab etc.

I use a SSD for quick back up of my Documents, and a mechanical drive for slow back up of the same documents and everything else.

I have a mechanical drive that has a mirror copy of the operating system and partitions of the drive inside my PC. So if anything goes wrong with the internal drive, I just have to swap over drives.

My oldest SSD is built into a laptop and is a 256GB is now 10 years old. It still works perfectly. It did cost an arm and a leg at that time.
None of my SSDs have failed yet. I got about ten on the last count, including three of the 1TB.

My preferred brand is Samsung with the model numbers 850/860/950/960 EVO.
 

BrentC

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Fact? Nope. Fact is that SSDs are FAAAAST and great for backups too since it only takes a few seconds to back up the files from your PC to the external drive and then disconnect the drive and store it somewhere safe. Time is expensive and time is what I'm now saving since I've switched to SSDs.

Too expensive? Naaah, not really if you're using your old SSDs from the PC itself. Basically they're free since they're recycled. I wouldn't spend a dollar on a HDD any more.

Yes SSD is fast. But why do you need fast for backup? I backup when I am not using my computer. It does it over night and I do a delta backup, so why do I care how long it takes to back up? I have SSD's in my laptops and my external USB drives that I use to work on for speed.

My NAS is 36TB. It costs $300CAD for one 12TB HD and it costs $300 for 2TB SSD.
So I would need 4 12TB drives at $1200CAD or I can get 18 2TB SSD (and not be able to use in a NAS or RAID) and cost $5400CAD
Now if you have a lot of data to back up you will need a lot of SSD drives and a lot of money! I know which one I would pick.

And as you increase your need for space you need to buy and buy more and more SSD drives. Also SSD drives degrade the more they are used. And with SSD you need to keep at least 20% space free otherwise they slow down drastically and you defeat the purpose of them.

I think people are mistaken work drives for backup drives. Backup drives do not need to be very fast. And 5400rpm or 7200rpm are plenty fast for backup and even most work. I stream full UHD 4K movies from my NAS easily.

Don't get me wrong, SSD's I would always recommend for computer and laptops and also external USB drives that you work off of. But we are talking backup.
I'll just save my money and have my cheap, reliable, fast and access anywhere NAS backup with HD.
 

BosseBe

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I bought a Dell G5 5590 gaming laptop. It is my first foray into a dual drive laptop combining a small NVMe something or the other 2(128GB) SSD and a large (1TB) SATA 6 HD,
This thread seems to have gone of the topic?
I have a question, what kind of NVMe connection is your laptop using? There are a lot of different standards for NVMe!
There are M2, SATA, PCIe and maybe more.
A quick search indicates it is a PCIe. the question is which version of PCIe? Don't overbuy, PCIe 4 devices are so new and more expensive that you don't want to buy them if you can't utilize them.
But you need to check this.

Replacing the HDD should be simpler since it is SATA, so a 2.5" HDD of any mark should do.
This is a search from Swedish Prisjakt for HDD 2.5": https://www.prisjakt.nu/c/interna-harddiskar?775=1668&782=10264&r_64013=2-19.778
there are a few that don't indicate SMR technology and they are more expensive.
 

pake

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Yes SSD is fast. But why do you need fast for backup? I backup when I am not using my computer. It does it over night and I do a delta backup, so why do I care how long it takes to back up? I have SSD's in my laptops and my external USB drives that I use to work on for speed.
Why not? Time is money. Need? Not necessary. Want? Sure.

And with SSD you need to keep at least 20% space free otherwise they slow down drastically and you defeat the purpose of them.
Not anymore. Software on the drives does that allocating automatically nowadays.

I think people are mistaken work drives for backup drives. Backup drives do not need to be very fast.
But it doesn't hurt that they'd be fast.
 

JensM

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This thread seems to have gone of the topic?

Dont know, but then again, I read the answers with relish, thoughts and awe. Even been in the cupboards and found a box that I found in a crate of stuff my mother would toss when my father passed on, I kept it under the motto of "It may come in handy down the road" and as a habit, I dont throw away HDs without physically destroying them. I think I am down that road now. :whistling:

20210130_125246.jpg
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Haven't managed to get it on-line, nor find drivers to it, two not unrelated problems, I think, but I plan to do a little tidying up in the study/workshop(overall plan is to get it into a study and leave the workshop stuff out of it) and may check if I can hook it up via USB. It contains 2X1TB Seagate Barracudas - 7200 rpms inside, but have not been hooked up any later than 2016, when mother sold the house and moved into an apartment. No idea about how old it is, as such. It lights and spins up when powered on, anyhow.
 

BosseBe

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I would guess that if you attach a external USB HDD to the USB connector and press the Backup button it will automatically back up the NAS to the USB drive!
So backing up your PC to the NAS and then regularily taking a backup of that with a USB (HDD) drive will get you into real backup!
This might actually be what you have there: https://www.netgear.com/support/product/RND2000v1_(ReadyNAS_Duo_v1).aspx
Look for a label to tell you what you have.
 
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