70-200 opinion piece on dpreview perpetuating the equivalence rubbish

Turbofrog

Mu-43 Legend
Joined
Mar 21, 2014
Messages
5,361
I'd say that the "advantage" of FF lies in the increased flexibility:

As you pointed out, FF gives you the option to attain better (i.e. cleaner) low light performance at the cost of shallower depth of field. Mu43 does not give you this option.

At the same time, a FF camera with sufficient resolution allows you to get pretty much the same results as mu43 in terms of ISO, aperture and DOF - simply increase the distance between the camera and the object and crop the picture afterwards.

What I'm trying to say is that any FF camera with sufficient resolution can be seen as effectively including a 4/3 sensor within its 35mm sensor.

Dan, that is a perfectly reasonable way of looking at it, except that there are not any FF sensors that have sufficient resolution to achieve that. To match a 12MP 4/3 sensor, one would need to crop from the center of a 48MP FF sensor. To match a 16MP 4/3 sensor, you'd need a 64MP FF sensor. These are conceivable, and there are rumours that Sony may have some sort of 46MP camera coming in the future.

And of course, the commensurate trade-off of that cropping is that the per-pixel image quality will be no better than with M4/3. In fact, given that no 64MP FF sensor has been made, it's unlikely any glass on the market exists that could resolve that well, anyway, so the quality would almost certainly be worse. And on top you'd be carrying around larger lenses in order to achieve it. So it's a nice situation to aspire to, but not tremendously practical for the present. I'm not sure how many people today would be happy to use a 36MP A7r with a Zeiss Otus just to achieve an average quality 9MP crop.
 

Atom Ant

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
381
Location
Melbourne, OZ
Real Name
Adam
Is it my imagination, or does the whole true equivalence trolling only apply to m43 sensors? I can't recall when Canon or Nikon folk have argued that lenses used with APS/DX sensors are not what they are labelled as. Maybe there's a connection between the number of bodies and lenses sold by Canon and Nikon for that sensor size, and the conspiracy of silence.

When I first went digital we didn't have this discussion - 135 format DSLRs were so much less common and unjustifiable for most amateur enthusiasts. We mostly adopted APS sensors and enjoyed the greater reach and DOF we got from our 70-200/2.8s and 300/4s. We didn't describe the lens as a 105-300/2.8~4 or a 450/4~5.6. We just learned what images they produced on the smaller sensor. Admittedly it wasn't so good that our 20mm lens was no longer UWA.
 

fortwodriver

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
1,393
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Real Name
Frank
Is it my imagination, or does the whole true equivalence trolling only apply to m43 sensors? I can't recall when Canon or Nikon folk have argued that lenses used with APS/DX sensors are not what they are labelled as. Maybe there's a connection between the number of bodies and lenses sold by Canon and Nikon for that sensor size, and the conspiracy of silence.

Ahhh... but of a Friday morning chat... ;-)

I don't think it's a conspiracy. I see it as much with Nikon and Canon APS-C users but it's definitely not as voracious.

When fourthirds came out it only took minutes before the Bloggeratti began crapping on it for its smaller sensor size. It was different then, though - because there were lots of people who actually saw the logic in having a slightly narrower, but taller frame. Less cropping, better ability to fill the frame for modern photo-print sizes.

Since 2003, a lot of armchair experts and bloggers have surfaced. People on the internet are far bolder now and it's MUCH easier to "make an expert" now than it was then. It seems like people create theories just to be contrarian and the loudest voices carry farthest. The whole equivalency thing is BS...It all started when a bunch of people looking to become experts on something that nobody really cared about so they began blurring the distinction between F-Stops and T-Stops. Anyone worth their salt can read up on exactly what an "F-Stop" is and see that it represents a fraction of the lenses mathematical focal length. But no, that's not interesting enough so we have these armchair-experts making mountains out of molehills by incorrectly re-defining F-Stops.

It made a justification in many people's heads for going to full-frame cameras to take photos of their cats, dogs, and children. Often crappy photos with one half of a childs iris in focus because they walk around shooting at f1.4 or f1.2. How do they justify buying a camera like a 6d and a lens like an 85mm f1.2 for that if they can't explain their purchase? They make up a BS equation that makes everything else appear to be a lie. They spend so much time online talking about this stuff that their photos are often mediocre.

Nobody ever called a half-frame f2.8 lens an f4.2 lens. ...and these f-stop shenanigans stop dead in their tracks as soon as someone brings up medium format because it's not a "format for the masses".

Ever notice that lens and camera manufacturers refuse to get into the aperture-equivalency dance?

I think the trick is to look at the amateurs who AREN'T spending hours in forums talking about this stuff. Those people spend time taking pictures. Often, they're fantastic pictures. I love looking at the photos people post here. Sharp photos, excellent lighting and once in a while, people like me, putting our feet in our mouths... ;-)
 
D

Deleted member 20897

Guest
Is it my imagination, or does the whole true equivalence trolling only apply to m43 sensors? I can't recall when Canon or Nikon folk have argued that lenses used with APS/DX sensors are not what they are labelled as. Maybe there's a connection between the number of bodies and lenses sold by Canon and Nikon for that sensor size, and the conspiracy of silence.

When I first went digital we didn't have this discussion - 135 format DSLRs were so much less common and unjustifiable for most amateur enthusiasts. We mostly adopted APS sensors and enjoyed the greater reach and DOF we got from our 70-200/2.8s and 300/4s. We didn't describe the lens as a 105-300/2.8~4 or a 450/4~5.6. We just learned what images they produced on the smaller sensor. Admittedly it wasn't so good that our 20mm lens was no longer UWA.

I think the difference now is:

(a) there are a lot more non-professional and non-serious enthusiasts buying DSLR and m43 cameras now than in the past. They just don;t have the background hat some of us do.

(b) there is not that big a difference between APS-C and 135 size sensors, so not too many people noticed/cared in regards to field of view and depth of field. There is a noticeable difference between these things with m43 and 1" and smaller sensor cameras.

(c) the internet loves itself a good debate, and what better to argue over than this? It seems to be the hot button right now.

I think that these kinds of subjects only really matter to those who actually need to understand this concept on a daily basis, and even then, is it something they are going to be thinking about while shooting? I certainly don't and I shoot with 135, APS-C and m43 sensor cameras all the time. then again, the more you shoot, the more automatic your responses become to the gear and the situation.
 

Turbofrog

Mu-43 Legend
Joined
Mar 21, 2014
Messages
5,361
I think the difference now is:

(a) there are a lot more non-professional and non-serious enthusiasts buying DSLR and m43 cameras now than in the past. They just don;t have the background hat some of us do.

(b) there is not that big a difference between APS-C and 135 size sensors, so not too many people noticed/cared in regards to field of view and depth of field. There is a noticeable difference between these things with m43 and 1" and smaller sensor cameras.

(c) the internet loves itself a good debate, and what better to argue over than this? It seems to be the hot button right now.

I think that these kinds of subjects only really matter to those who actually need to understand this concept on a daily basis, and even then, is it something they are going to be thinking about while shooting? I certainly don't and I shoot with 135, APS-C and m43 sensor cameras all the time. then again, the more you shoot, the more automatic your responses become to the gear and the situation.
He he, just to continue being contrarian... Isn't there a lot bigger difference between 135 and APS-C compared to APS-C and 4/3? (There is.)

I don't think that's the reason for the newfound emphasis...
 
D

Deleted member 20897

Guest
He he, just to continue being contrarian... Isn't there a lot bigger difference between 135 and APS-C compared to APS-C and 4/3? (There is.)

I don't think that's the reason for the newfound emphasis...

There is a visible difference between 135 and m43, and I'm just positing a hypothesis.
 

mattia

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
2,395
Location
The Netherlands
There is a visible difference between 135 and m43, and I'm just positing a hypothesis.

I think the argument was that there is not a huge difference between m43 and APS-C, which I agree with. I find m43 to be a better sweet spot for compactness with many of the features of a larger sensor system, more than APS-C in any case, and a better complement to my FF gear.
 

Turbofrog

Mu-43 Legend
Joined
Mar 21, 2014
Messages
5,361
I think the argument was that there is not a huge difference between m43 and APS-C, which I agree with. I find m43 to be a better sweet spot for compactness with many of the features of a larger sensor system, more than APS-C in any case, and a better complement to my FF gear.

Yes, that was exactly my point. If you can tell the difference between 135 and M4/3, you can tell the difference between 135 and APS-C.
 

fortwodriver

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
1,393
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Real Name
Frank
Yes, that was exactly my point. If you can tell the difference between 135 and M4/3, you can tell the difference between 135 and APS-C.

Am I the only one that feels a slight-crush to black on the recent m43 sensors "feel" better on a print than recent APS-C sensors?
I also find Aperture does less damage to my Oly images than it did with my Canon 7D.
 

KBeezie

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Sep 15, 2012
Messages
1,393
Location
Grand Rapids, Mi
Real Name
Karl Blessing
Seems half the time be it film or digital, the biggest noticeable advantage to getting a 1.2 or 1.4 was the brighter optical viewfinder and easier focus (especially with the older microprism focusing rings). Particularly if the shooter never shot wide open.
 

tosvus

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
691
Having the Nocticron, and knowing it is "2.4 equivalent", I honestly can't imagine shooting on a Full Frame that gives a narrower DoF than that. Even with the this, you can easily have the nose in focus while the eyes are out of focus...

I enjoy the fact that I can compensate for the smaller sensor size in low light, by going with faster aperture and still retain a usable DoF, so let the trolls say whatever they like :) The funny thing is that now we even have great speedboosters (for those that are comfortable shooting manual), so with that or the fastest m43 lenses, I don't see much PRACTICAL advantage to full frame. I occasionally miss the lower pixel count though, for landscape etc.
 

Latest threads

Top Bottom