4K 60fps

ripleys baby

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4K 60fps. Please could someone enlighten me as to the minimum requirements to play and edit the aforementioned video. Not interested in software or storage , just the basic.
Processor, ram, graphics. My 7 year old iMac isn't even capable of 1920x1080 ! So I would like to know to future proof my next computer.
Thanks very much .
 

barry13

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Hi, I'd wait a bit unless you need it now.
They're just starting to add hardware decoding support to CPUs and GPUs for the latest formats.

Probably the latest Intel CPUs will be able to handle it without a discrete GPU, but I'd read the reviews carefully.
 

DanS

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I can help with this, but you didn't give me a lot to go on.

even your old imac should be able to play it. go to YouTube and in the description of this video is a link to some raw GH5 clips. some of the clips won't be playable, but 2 of them will be and one is 4k60.

with regards to editing, you need to provide more information. What type of editing are we talking about, are you just slicing and dicing clips together with transitions, or are you doing color correction and noise reduction etc?

additionally how are you trying to edit 1080p now? are you trying to edit with the raw h.264 clips?
 

dornblaser

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To see footage in 4K you will need any of the 4K or 5K iMac would work. To edit 4K I would get a higher end 27" 5K iMac and spend the money for the 1TB SSD and upgraded graphics card.
 
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DanS

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To see footage in 4K any of the 4K or 5K iMac would work. To edit 4K I would get a higher end 27" 5K iMac and spend the money for the 1TB SSD and upgraded graphics card.

when i get home tonight, I'll rite up what I'm using to edit, but if he wants to edit 4k clips greater than a few minutes in length he is going to need more than 1TB. I have a 512GB samsung 950 pro and that barely enough to work with for 4k source down-sampled to 1080p. The main reason being you must transcode the raw h.264/h.265 to prores or dnxhr, or no computer is really going to handle it well.
 

DanS

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I definitely DO NOT recommend the 4K iMac, just because of the specs and price. The 5K iMac, while more expensive, is definitely a better option.
The most cost effective system is a custom built PC or Linux box, but you really need to know what your doing.
 

dornblaser

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even your old imac should be able to play it. go to YouTube and in the description of this video is a link to some raw GH5 clips. some of the clips won't be playable, but 2 of them will be and one is 4k60.
Yes, but not in 4K.

I definitely DO NOT recommend the 4K iMac, just because of the specs and price. The 5K iMac, while more expensive, is definitely a better option.
Agreed, but we all do not have same budget.
 

DanS

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Yes, but not in 4K.
That's why I asked what he wants to do. Unless you are doing super critical color grading or NR, you don't need a 4k monitor. Applications like DR, will happily let you crop in and view a section while editing if needed. Not to mention if that's what you plan on doing, the monitor will be the least of your concerns, as you will need some serious hardware to edit 4k60 real-time with NR and grading.
 

kevinparis

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Play and edit are two very different scenarios.. playing is relatively easy.. editing on the other hand is either processing intensive or storage intensive or both depending on the recording codec

The definitions of 4K, HD or any video format are not defined just by the pixel dimensions, but also by the bitrate. The higher the bitrate the more data you have to deal with in terms of storage, but editing is computationally simpler .

A lower bitrate means the footage is more compressed and while you have smaller files, the computational effort to perform edits increases because the computer has to recreate each frame on the fly.

Apple takes an approach with imovie and final cut that transcodes in the background the clips you are editing into a less compressed format, which makes for faster editing... the downside is that it can create humungous temporary files

If you are looking to get a new mac, they are all capable of the computational aspects, but would budget for serious external storage

K
 

DanS

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I think that you need both, which is what makes the higher spec'd iMacs such a great machine.
I have a Broadwell-E hexa core i7 running at 4.2 ghz and a gtx 1070 running at 2.1 Ghz and i don't even think my machine is capable of anything more than basic real time editing of 4k60. Note that my machine is more capable than even the highest end Imac currently available.

This is my machines full speck. I still need to pick up 4 HDD so I can raid0 them so I can work with larger amounts of 4k footage.
dans98 - Saved Part Lists - PCPartPicker

After dinner I will do some testing and report back.
 

dornblaser

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I don't think that your machine is more capable of 4K editing than my iMac, particularly with programs like FCPX which is optimized for OS X. I have long ago stopped lining up specs and comparing them. Macs and OS X programs have a way of working very efficiently. Take the lowly MacBook, not the Pro, you can edit 4K on it.
 

DanS

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The name of the game in editing is real time editing. What that means is when you click play in the editor, it plays as the proper frame rate, regardless of the fact that you might have transitions, color grading, or NR being done to the footage. If you can’t edit in real time, you will quickly give up.

If you are going to start working with 4k footage, you are going to become very familiar with two concepts that can let you work in real time, transcoding & proxy files. Depending on the footage, and what you are doing to it, you might use one or the other, or in some cases both.

The h.264 & h.265 codecs that consumer grade cameras output are heavily compressed, and thus not very suitable for editing. Why is something better left to a much more technical discussion at a later date.

The easiest and simplest way to work around this is, is to transcode the footage to another format, that is less compressed and thus much easier to edit. The trade off though is that you need a lot more storage space. On macs the most popular format is ProRes, on Windows it’s DNxHR

Take a look at the bandwidth specs for DNxHR here.
DNxHR Codec Bandwidth Specifications
If you want the absolute best quality, you would transcode the 4k60 out of the GH5 (what I assume we are talking about) to DNxHR HQ. At 4k60 DNxHR HQ consumes ~208MB of disk space per second of video. If you do the math you will see that 80mins of video will fill a 1TB drive

The other way of dealing with 4k footage is proxy files, and every major editor I’ve worked with has this functionality. What a proxy files lets you do is work with footage that requires more processing power than your machine has. If you have an editor make a proxy file at a minimum it will transcode it, and a lot of times it will also downsample it to a lower resolution.

When you are manipulating the footage in the editor, you are doing it to the proxy footage, not the raw footage. The raw footage is only used when you do the final rendering, most commonly referred to as mastering. In some cases if the proxy file wasn’t downsampled, it can be used instead of the raw footage to speed up rendering.

Something to keep in mind, is if you’re using downsampled proxy files, you have no need for a 4k monitor, because the footage isn’t 4k. You would only get 4k footage in the final render.

My test:
I took the 2 4k60 clips from the download url I mentioned above and transcoded them to 4k60 DNxHR HQ using ffmpeg, I then did the editing with Davinchi Resolve.

  • I was able to do basic editing (trimming,splitting, transitions) in real time.
  • I was able to make color adjustments in real time.
  • I was able to apply simple adjustments (blur) in real time, as long as I didn't use more than a few nodes.
  • I was not able to do any appreciable amount of NR in real time. The graphics card could not handle it.
 
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dornblaser

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What editor are you using? Davinchi? And, are you working off a spinner or SSD?

The GH5 record modes are: AVCHD, MP4 or MOV. I am guessing that most GHx users won't be transcoding but using the MP4, MOV native files directly in FCPX, Premier, etc. That's what I typically do. With older products like FC7, transcoding was a necessity. I am not hearing the need to transcode with FCPX now. Most videographer's site seem to say edit natively and transcode later if you need to. FWIW - you can transcode within FCPX.

Interesting stuff.
 
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DanS

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I don't think that your machine is more capable of 4K editing than my iMac, particularly with programs like FCPX which is optimized for OS X.
I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with this.






What editor are you using? Davinchi? And, are you working off a spinner or SSD?
I mentioned the editor in my last post. I'm working off the Samsung 950 pro, that was until about 2 months ago the fastest ssd you could buy.

I am not hearing the need to transcode with FCPX now. Most videographer's site seem to say edit natively and transcode later if you need to.
Without seeing the exact post you are talking about i'm willing to bet that's because they are using proxy files, what @kevinparis and I mentioned. If memory serves FCPX uses what it calls optimized media & Proxy Media. I'm not a FC user, but it would not surprise me at all to find out is makes proxy files be default.

Proxy files specially downsampled ones is not the same thing as editing 4k files.
 
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dornblaser

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Yes, we are on the same page. That said, I don't think that most of this conversation is relevant to the OP who has a 7 year old iMac. As I said before, I doubt that many GHx, G85, etc., users are going to transcode and will be using the native files to edit from.
 

DanS

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Yes, we are on the same page. That said, I don't think that most of this conversation is relevant to the OP who has a 7 year old iMac. As I said before, I doubt that many GHx, G85, etc., users are going to transcode and will be using the native files to edit from.
Yes that's why I asked him to give more details, on what he wants to do. Any machine can generate proxy files and still dump out a 4k master, but the trade off is time. How long he is willing to wait for proxy file generation and master rendering will determine his budget.

to recap:
Everyone working from an h.264 raw source is transcoding. Either they are doing it themselves or the editor is doing it for them during proxy file generation. If Your machine is really low on grunt the proxy files will even be down-sampled version of the raw files.
 

ripleys baby

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Thank you to all that contributed to this thread. I think I have understood most of the replies. The reason for my question was basically to find out what spec computer to buy to cover everything I may want to do in the future. I am also a little more educated about digital video. I love video but for now I'll remain a still shooter.
Thanks all very much.
 

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