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  #11  
Old July 4th, 2012, 04:52 AM
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I agree, we certainly don't know anything about the actual order volumes. I was making the assumption that Sony's APS-C sensors are made in substantially larger volumes since they are used in multiple cameras from various manufacturers. For exmple, Sony's 16MP APS-C has had, and is having, a good run, being used in Sony NEX, SLT and DSLR cameras as well as Nikon DSLRs, a Ricoh GXR module as well as various Pentax models. Unless we start to see Panasonic using Sony sensors, I was assuming that the production run for Sony's 4/3 sensor would be much lower since it would only be used in successive PEN and OM models. But that's not based on hard facts.

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Originally Posted by With_Eyes_Unclouded View Post
We aren't really sure what cameras this or derivative sensors will be used in the furure. What if Sony comes out with a 26.5Mp APS-C sensor for the NEX-9? Also, how do we know what the actual order volume from Olympus actually was? OM-Ds sell like hot cakes and will continue to do so for some time, new Pens are coming by the end of 2012, and we have reason to believe they shall also use this basic sensor (perhaps with some different auxiliary parts, such as AA filter, etc).

What I'm trying to say is, there is no rational reason to assume this is a kind of bespoke, and therefore seriously expensive, sensor.
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  #12  
Old July 4th, 2012, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viztyger View Post
I agree, we certainly don't know anything about the actual order volumes. I was making the assumption that Sony's APS-C sensors are made in substantially larger volumes since they are used in multiple cameras from various manufacturers. For exmple, Sony's 16MP APS-C has had, and is having, a good run, being used in Sony NEX, SLT and DSLR cameras as well as Nikon DSLRs, a Ricoh GXR module as well as various Pentax models. Unless we start to see Panasonic using Sony sensors, I was assuming that the production run for Sony's 4/3 sensor would be much lower since it would only be used in successive PEN and OM models. But that's not based on hard facts.
You are right, of course, Sony existing APS-C are produced in much larger quantities, to the point of costing "almost nothing" (sic!) by now. Assuming economies of scale, the sensor in the OM-D (or/and technology therein) should be used in a variety of future cameras, even from Sony. Time for speculation:
  • I think Sony would come out with an "almost " sensor size camera at some point. In the same sense as Canon with their soon to be released mirrorless and the previous G1X. It may be a compact or a ILC.
  • More on this, there are rumors of Nikon having something similar in the pipeline. Could it be they will be using the same tech?
  • It is more than probable that Olympus shall get a smaller (RX100 size?) sensor from Sony for their future compacts.
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  #13  
Old July 4th, 2012, 10:46 AM
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This only made me wonder if Sony has plans joining the micro four thirds.
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  #14  
Old July 4th, 2012, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Sal View Post
This only made me wonder if Sony has plans joining the micro four thirds.
Or... Olympus could make a couple lenses for NEX.
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  #15  
Old July 4th, 2012, 10:57 AM
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Maybe the OM-D sensor will be used in the upcoming Canon MILC?
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  #16  
Old July 4th, 2012, 11:04 AM
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Whatever the future holds I'm sure will be better than what we have now. I can see this technology trickling down to the Pen line up and upping the ante on Panasonic to come up with something really special. In the end, we all benefit from this and we'll have lower cost cameras as well. I can see a new E-PL6 debuting with this sensor relatively soon.

Remember when the E-PL2 came 9 ( someone correct me if I'm wrong please ) months after the E-PL1 came into the market. So, it seems Olympus is not afraid to jump the gun and let their product line evolve as the technology becomes readily accessible. In the latter example, changing a few things and making the camera ergonomically better.
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  #17  
Old July 4th, 2012, 11:48 AM
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"...there is now pressure for Panasonic to improve their sensor designs in order for their cameras to remain as competitive as possible with Olympus cameras."
Gotta love competition to make things better!

"I can't really see any downside to this news as far as we consumers are concerned. Anyone see a problem?"

I potentially see difficulty if the makers delay release of a camera because production of the sensor is delayed merely to make it better just to BE better at the time in order to say it is better than the competitor's product. This could artificially pump-up the final product cost of the new camera and inflate those on the used market. This is a price control mechanism that doesn't need to occur.

Conversely, I don't propose releasing the product if it is sub-standard just to release it. As consumers, we don't need to wast our hard-earned wages on inadequacy.

Japanese manufacturing practices are very likely to be the most efficient and neither the extremes that I just described should completely manifest.
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  #18  
Old July 4th, 2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan F/2 View Post
Maybe the OM-D sensor will be used in the upcoming Canon MILC?
No! There is ZERO Percent chance of this. Canon have their own sensor design teams and production facilities. Whatever sensor Canon may place in that body, it will be a Canon sensor, not Sony.

That said, it is good that Sony is supplying the sensor for Olympus. Sony have the ability to produce sensors at competitive prices and supply them in adequate quantities for Olympus no matter how much their sales may grow.

Nikon has a collaborative relationship with Sony. There are rather few pure Sony sensors in Nikon cameras. Nikon's design team works with Sony in some respects and reworks Sony designs in some other ways which ordinarily results in the Nikon sensor outperforming the similar Sony sensor when it comes to high ISO noise. Nikon have occasionally sources a sensor elsewhere, but, for the most part, Sony and Nikon have a rather close relationship.

Not to sound too gloomy, but it remains to be seen whether Olympus' camera division will survive. I hope it will. If so, Olympus may develop a relationship with Sony similar to Nikon's.

In any event, competition is good.

[Edit] P.S. It is generally thought that APS-C sensors cost around $45-$50. I have not heard any figures for m4/3 sensors, but they should most certainly cost less than this both because of the size and the percentage of yields (per wafer) which generally rise the smaller the sensor.

Sony have plans to dramatically expand their market share of sensor production and have invested nearly $1B in new facilities to accomplish this so we may only have seen the beginning of this.

Last edited by Ninja; July 4th, 2012 at 01:14 PM.
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  #19  
Old July 4th, 2012, 01:12 PM
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Just my two cents:
I've had the GH2 for some time and have used it regularly at ISO 3200 and 6400, so I'm aware of its noise characteristics. After a bit of pixel peaking at all the review sites after the OM's release, I see only a slight difference at those ISO's with the GH2. The real difference would be with the quality of JPG processing, an Olympus advantage, as well as in body stabilization for the use of fast primes.
If you usually shoot RAW, however, the Panasonic GH2 is not a massively qualitative step down. Additionally, Panasonic's video capability is a bit better integrated. Current price differences put the Panasonic at an advantage as well.
So, if the evolution of the Panasonic continues as it has over the years, they should soon have a chip or processing tweak that bridges that slight gap with Olympus.
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  #20  
Old July 4th, 2012, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stebailey View Post
Just my two cents:
I've had the GH2 for some time and have used it regularly at ISO 3200 and 6400, so I'm aware of its noise characteristics. After a bit of pixel peaking at all the review sites after the OM's release, I see only a slight difference at those ISO's with the GH2. The real difference would be with the quality of JPG processing, an Olympus advantage, as well as in body stabilization for the use of fast primes.
If you usually shoot RAW, however, the Panasonic GH2 is not a massively qualitative step down. Additionally, Panasonic's video capability is a bit better integrated. Current price differences put the Panasonic at an advantage as well.
So, if the evolution of the Panasonic continues as it has over the years, they should soon have a chip or processing tweak that bridges that slight gap with Olympus.
What you observe is very true. Virtually all camera manufacturers have, somewhat belatedly, realized that image processing has a very great deal to do with IQ as well as noise reduction and have placed new emphasis on both the ASIC chips and the firmware used to process the captured image.

Panasonic undoubtedly have some new sensors ready for release in the near term and it would be unusual if they were not better than their predecessors. The GH-2 has been popular for its video capability and its pricing is certainly more competitive than the OM-D E-M5 in several respects. The IBIS of the E-M5 appears to be quite good and rumors have it that Panasonic have been exploring the possibility of incorporating IBIS in future products which would allow them to have more competitively priced lenses by deleting the in-the-lens IS...and would benefit users wanting to use "legacy" glass w/o IS.

If Panasonic should be able to deliver the "global" (electronic) shutter with the new sensor in the GH3 the OM-D will have a formidable competitor.

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