Many questions about color management in Photoshop

rossi46 · #1 January 12th, 2013, 09:39 PM

After getting horrid print results I had done many research and managed to come out understanding quite alot better, but still with half-baked understanding.

I am going to come out with basic questions first before moving on to post questions about settings or workflows that suits my situation.
Heres my basic questions -

1. Convert to Profile -
I had been advised that the main culprit of my muddy and dull prints could be missing out the steps to convert profile from Adobe RGB to sRGB, before saving the file in JPEG to send for printing.
For your info, I sent to print for photobook (a normal commercial printers / not professional level, and I understand they use HP Indigo printers)

Question -
Is this true? Most commercial printers works best with sRGB? While proPhoto and Adobe RGB is for higher end professional printers?

2. Colour Settings -
I had read that colour settings is the setting you use to affect the behaviour of how photoshop converts to profile.

Questions -
- so colour settings is quite an important part of convert to profile? For example if I am printing photographic materials instead of designs, I would need to do stuff as changing the intent to "perceptual" instead of "relative colour" to avoid harsh tones which may result from sRGB's limited colour gamut?
- What are the steps to be done, I need to do colour settings first before I convert to profile?

3. View - softproof -
The intention of Softproof view as I understand is to simulate how the colour will look in print.

Questions -
If I shoot in Adobe RGB, edit in Adobe RGB, convert to profile to sRGB before sending to print....
Do I need to softproof in Adobe RGB or sRGB or in CYMK while I am doing my editing work?

Thanks in advance for your kind effort to reply...

flash · #2 January 12th, 2013, 10:01 PM

1. Yes. Send a sRGB file unless otherwise told. If in doubt call them. If they don't know send a sRGB file. I only use ProPhoto for prints I make myself.

2. I prefer perceptual although much of the time the differences are minor. I would suggest you make a copy of the file ('file name_print") for printing if you're changing profiles to a smaller colour space. Then convert to profile and make any adjustments for final output.

3. No. You softproof using the profile of the printer you're outputting to. A better lab will have a profile you can download to use as a softproof profile that they have made for their printer. Or if the lab is using a wide format Epson or Canon printer and you know the paper type the paper manufacturer may have one you can download. For lesser commercial printers sRGB *may* work, but since you're converting to sRGB anyway you may as well not bother.

Have a look here for some introductory information:

wedding photographers - commercial photography - central coast - sydney - newcastle - hunter valley Flash Gordon Photography

Gordon

WasOM3user · #3 January 13th, 2013, 04:16 AM

Thanks for pointing out this article - as someone struggling with the jump from film to Digital this is big help.

Note to self - get display calibrated and printers profile pronto !!

Conrad · #4 January 13th, 2013, 04:43 AM

I fully agree with Flash's answers, but still some additional remarks.

The printer profile is only important if you print yourself, or when soft-proofing. Soft-proofing means that you check via software simulation how the printer will handle the color rendering (especially the out-of-gamut colors). If you don't have a color calibrated (and preferably wide gamut) display, soft proofing makes no sense.

With color management, you can either do everything in sRGB (which usually means: do nothing special except maybe calibrating your display), or you can go all-in. There is no real middle ground. All-in means: calibrate your display and printer; invest in a wide gamut display and printer if you really are picky on the saturated colors; learn everything about color spaces, rendering intent and profiles. And then you will also find out that going raw and prophoto makes the most sense if you want the maximum control.

mattia · #5 January 13th, 2013, 06:03 AM

The print place I use for huge prints uses sRGB, so I edit and process prints for that in sRGB. Not much point in painstaking color correction and then downgrading to a smaller space at the last minute. Another lab uses ProPhoto-ish color space and provides profiles for their printers, but doesn't do crazy huge prints (yet) and is quite a bit pricier.

Different workflow for different images. All my stuff for web sticks to sRGB, since 99% of people viewing it don't have calibrated monitors and many won't have managed browsers.

flash · #6 January 13th, 2013, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasOM3user

Thanks for pointing out this article - as someone struggling with the jump from film to Digital this is big help.

Note to self - get display calibrated and printers profile pronto !!

I forgot to clarify that it's a paper/printer profile. You need to use profiles for the paper/printer combo you use. If you're trying different papers you'll need a profile for each one. It's not like a monitor where there's only one.

I suggest you don't worry about printers too much until you get your head around colour management first. There's nothing wrong with sticking with sRGB prints for a while. It's not like they look bad. sRGB prints, done well, look awesome. It's only when you put one next to an aRGB or larger working space that you'll see there was a difference and then not all the time. Some subjects (portraits for example) work well in the sRGB space.

Gordon

rossi46 · #7 January 13th, 2013, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flash

3. No. You softproof using the profile of the printer you're outputting to. A better lab will have a profile you can download to use as a softproof profile that they have made for their printer. Or if the lab is using a wide format Epson or Canon printer and you know the paper type the paper manufacturer may have one you can download. For lesser commercial printers sRGB *may* work, but since you're converting to sRGB anyway you may as well not bother.

Have a look here for some introductory information:

wedding photographers - commercial photography - central coast - sydney - newcastle - hunter valley Flash Gordon Photography

I forgot to clarify that it's a paper/printer profile. You need to use profiles for the paper/printer combo you use. If you're trying different papers you'll need a profile for each one. It's not like a monitor where there's only one.

I suggest you don't worry about printers too much until you get your head around colour management first. There's nothing wrong with sticking with sRGB prints for a while. It's not like they look bad. sRGB prints, done well, look awesome

Gordon

Hi Flash, thanks for your explanations and the excellent link. However, I still have some further clarifications to be made.

In my case, my work will be sent to commercial level printing of Photobook, in which one of the service provider told me to send the file in sRGB. They do not know what kind of ICC profiling (printer + paper combo) that they use.
But the paper type will be texture raster.

So in my situation, I do not need to softproof?

If I edit my work in Adobe RGB mode, do I need to look at the colors softproof in Adobe RGB mode or in sRGB (since I will convert to profile later)?
I should not be using CYMK softproof mode right?

rossi46 · #8 January 13th, 2013, 08:07 PM

Questions about Monitor calibration

As I understand, monitor calibration is to allow users to see color as close as possible to prints.

- Monitor calibration is done using what base? Is there a standard base to calibrate the monitor, and once calibrated, whatever ICC profiles you use will show highly accurate colours?

- Monitor calibration improves colour accuracy, what about accuracy of brightness, shadows and contrast?

- My work will be printed as a hobby with probably low end commercial printers using sRGB convert to profile. The printing shops has no idea about ICC profile.
Monitor calibration will not really give me any benefits in this situation?

- I am using low end Acer V3 Aspire notebook, probably with very limited colour gamut, is it necessary to perform monitor calibration?

- See above questions,
If answer is "no, no point calibrating monitor if I am using low end Acer V3 and I only send in sRGB commercial printers without ICC profile info) -

Is there any quick and easy tips on how I should change my monitor settings so that I can get closer to the print.
Eg. - brightness, contrast, gamma etc...

And when I do my work, should it be in a dark or dimly lit environment?

What about this link from Cambridge in Colour,
Monitor Calibration for Photography

I am referring to "Adjusting brightness and contrast" paragraph, is this useful info?

mattia · #9 January 14th, 2013, 02:46 AM

Monitor calibration is done based on calibration device/colorimeter measurements against ICC standards that define what Red (and other colors) should like like. For the ins and outs you can try reading the documentation for X-rite or Spyder products. Color accuracy is indeed only part of the story, and viewing conditions should also be controlled - I calibrate in a room with blinds closed, and the x-rite device I use is also used to set luminosity (brightness).

There will always be a difference in terms of brightness and contrast, simply because your monitor is backlit, and paper is not. It takes a bit of practice to 'see' how night shots in particular will look on print. Also, while color calibration is always useful to some degree, I would not bother purchasing a calibration device until AFTER I got a good screen. And by 'good screen' I mean an IPS panel, one that doesn't change color or brightness based on what angle you look at it from.

For the record, calibration is not something you 'only' need if you're using wider gamut color spaces. It is equally important to achieving good/predictable prints if your workflow is sRGB. Heck, most monitors can't even display full sRGB, let alone full Adobe or ProPhoto RGB.

You may want to consider looking for a better shop that does know their color management. They're usually not much more expensive than the cheap print places, but the quality difference is definitely there. I still go to 'cheap' places if I want a bunch (20-30) larger prints (8x10s or bigger), or as a 'test run', but any images worth hanging get printed at the more expensive places that have more paper options and good ICC profiles available.

Bottom line: if you're serious about getting good prints, an IPS monitor (such as a 23" Dell Ultrasharp series) and a calibration device are your best bet investments. Unless you print A LOT, pro level inkjet color printers will be much more expensive than having shots printed by pro printers.

flash · #10 January 14th, 2013, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rossi46

Hi Flash, thanks for your explanations and the excellent link. However, I still have some further clarifications to be made.

In my case, my work will be sent to commercial level printing of Photobook, in which one of the service provider told me to send the file in sRGB. They do not know what kind of ICC profiling (printer + paper combo) that they use.
But the paper type will be texture raster.

So in my situation, I do not need to softproof?

If I edit my work in Adobe RGB mode, do I need to look at the colors softproof in Adobe RGB mode or in sRGB (since I will convert to profile later)?
I should not be using CYMK softproof mode right?

1. CMYK is of little use for photographers. Even though your inkjet printer uses CMYK inks it's still expecting a RGB file. Converting to CMYK requires some skill and there are people who will do it well. You and I probably wont. So as a photographer you wont likely ever need to work with a CMYK file.

2. My workflow is to softproof if I have a printer profile to work with. If I'm sending to sRGB I'll create a duplicate of the finished aRGB file, convert it to sRGB and make any adjustments (if any) I need to.

Gordon