Featured Forum Post: 'Dear Panasonic, what are you going to do?'

[songs2001]

Originally Posted by WT21

I think the Nikon 1 with the pdaf on the sensor is pretty close for pdaf mirrorless.

One issue, though, is pdaf and cdaf use differeent lens designs that are counter to each approach. That is, you cant optimize a lens for both. Im assuming the Nikon1 gets away with it because with such a small sensor and short focus distances, they can get away with it. Not sure how it would work on a larger sensor like m43, though I suppose there might be other approaches. I agree, though, if Panny could do that, I'd be on board.

There are four thirds lenses optimized for both. The 40-150 four thirds lens has two versions one CDAF and PDAF and one PDAF, then you have the 40-150 m43 lens which is CDAF only.

Seems like the 40-150 lens works fine either way.

I think the Nikon 1 defaults to CDAF when the light levels are low, which might the reason why it focuses so slow when the light goes down.

[troll]

Originally Posted by AnttiV

you apparently haven't done that kind of shooting at all, if you really have that opinion. Yes, at those speeds the IS can only compensate for hand shaking, but that is the exact thing I NEED it to. That is the sole reason I ever put IS on in the first place. Honestly, I do not know what the IS function is for, if not for compensating hands shaking. At 1/20, I can take great photos with IS of those rare moments anyone stays still longer than 1/50 :D And IS set to the second mode (panning), it's not stretching it to take fine photos even at 1/5 or even at 1/2. I've even taken a few very nice pictures of my kids at 1s shutter speed by tracking the target. Yes, the surroundings will be a blur and there won't be much in sharpness, but if I can get the face sharp that's usually enough.

I have shot a moving kid indoors many times and IBIS was never of any help. Actually you're the first person I've ever seen reporting that IBIS greatly helps when shooting this sort of scene.

Originally Posted by AnttiV

But, the original point why I think you haven't photographed in those conditions is your second chapter. Yes "few $70 flashes, $50 radio triggers and some cheap stands/umbrellas/softboxes" will give you technically awesome images, but where are your subjects then? You can do pretty good planned portrait photography with that set. Keyword: planned. You don't ever "plan" photographs of kids plays. You have to make it count there and then, you do not have ANY time to set up flashes or flick around with settings, in fact most of the time you'll lose the shot simply if you didn't have your camera on hand and/or turned on. If you start to build a lighting set (setting up tripods and umbrellas) you won't get natural photographs of the kids, because they'll be aware of what you're doing (and most like will come and kick the tripods rather than continue playing).

That's just an excuse. Put a couple of flashes in the corners of the room without any stands or modifiers, point them into the ceiling and you'll momentarily move from silly < 1/20 sec at high ISO to ISO 200-400 at 1/100-1/200 without disturbing anyone or having to spend any time to prepare the shoot. A lot of people don't even put their flashes off-camera, a single flash on camera pointed at the ceiling is still much better than 1/20 sec. That's how the majority solves the problem of shooting moving subjects indoors. The minority, apparently, turns to god, hoping image stabilization would help them, but IS is designed to help with static scenes and certainly not with moving kids.

[AnttiV]

Originally Posted by troll

I have shot a moving kid indoors many times and IBIS was never of any help. Actually you're the first person I've ever seen reporting that IBIS greatly helps when shooting this sort of scene.

Just to clear things up, even if it matters only little: I haven't once said I use IBIS, but in fact stated that I use OIS. (I have a Panny G3, that does not offer IBIS.) This may not matter in the slightest, but just that we're clear. I'm not advocating what you call "god". I'm using the G3's kit lens with OIS in the lens. (Only IS system I've ever used, really. My Sigma doesn't have IBIS either and any IS available is lens-only. And for the record, based on nothing but "I just feel that way", I've always thought OIS better than IBIS. Might actually be no difference at all, I don't know.)

Originally Posted by troll

That's just an excuse. Put a couple of flashes in the corners of the room without any stands or modifiers, point them into the ceiling and you'll momentarily move from silly < 1/20 sec at high ISO to ISO 200-400 at 1/100-1/200 without disturbing anyone or having to spend any time to prepare the shoot. A lot of people don't even put their flashes off-camera, a single flash on camera pointed at the ceiling is still much better than 1/20 sec. That's how the majority solves the problem of shooting moving subjects indoors. The minority, apparently, turns to god, hoping image stabilization would help them, but IS is designed to help with static scenes and certainly not with moving kids.

EDIT: Why would you use IS with static scenes? Is it really designed for that? I don't understand why? If the scene is static, why don't you just set up a tripod and be done with it? MUCH better than anything IS may be able to do. Please tell me where IS helps with static scenes, I always just turn it off and put the camera on a tripod if I shoot static scenes.

I'm sorry again, but this further proves you haven't done what you claim. Or then your images are staked and not on-the-go natural playing kids.

My house has 12 rooms. The kids usually play in at least 10 of them. Do you suggest I either:

a) buy 20 flash units and set them perpetually up in each room so I can use them whenever I need?

b) set up two units in one room and only take pictures in that room, no matter if the good shots (that day, moment) are happening elsewhere?

c) have two units and start setting them up in any room the kids currently are in?

Or, most probable: d) have OIS so I can get away with 1/20 shutter speed, no matter the room?

If I'm the first person to ever testify that OIS (yet again, note: not IBIS) helps with hand-shake in low light conditions (sorry I have hard time believing that). You're the first person I have ever heard to say that "majority" of those who shoot playing kids use elaborate off-camera flash setups. I've never head ANYONE using that. For other kinds of shots, certainly. I've myself used those with, well, almost anything that is planned. Good off-camera flash setup is essential if you don't have light if you can plan the image.

Please note I said that my opinion might differ if I had a good automatic TTL flash, which I don't. I only have a couple of manual units that arguably give better images, but can't be used in a second's notice.

I have an example:

P1000108 by AnttiV, on Flickr

This shot, SOOC, was taken when I was planning to take a picture of my son (who is behind in that pic) and my daughter just jumped in front of the camera. I had probably around half a second to catch this photo. With an exposure time if 1/30 there's no way I could've ever gotten that without an OIS and no time to set up ANY sort of flash setup.

This is the kind of photos I mean. In-the-moment, natural playing and action. I'm sorry if you can't understand that it is quite impossible to take these kinds of photos with elaborate lighting setups. You just CAN'T plan good lighting house-wide, all the time. You can have a "studio" (so to speak), but what happens there is acting, not spontaneous natural playing.

But, we're derailing this conversation quite too much. I'm willing to continue, but in another thread perhaps. If you've used to, and have experience with good flash setups, I might very well learn something valuable. My experience with flashes limits to all-manual or automatic, but wrong camera model and thus no TTL (so they just shoot at full power) flash units. Mind you, not bad flash units as such, they tilt and have quite enough power, but I've always had to test, test, test and test over again and tweak settings on-camera as the flashes haven't had any connection to the camera other than middle contact in the hot-shoe (or slave trigger via light).

[songs2001]

Originally Posted by AnttiV

EDIT: Why would you use IS with static scenes? Is it really designed for that? I don't understand why? If the scene is static, why don't you just set up a tripod and be done with it? MUCH better than anything IS may be able to do. Please tell me where IS helps with static scenes, I always just turn it off and put the camera on a tripod if I shoot static scenes.

I'm sorry again, but this further proves you haven't done what you claim. Or then your images are staked and not on-the-go natural playing kids.

My house has 12 rooms. The kids usually play in at least 10 of them. Do you suggest I either:

IS was originally designed for static things with long lenses. People that liked to take pictures of birds chilling on trees for example. If you stalking birds or celebrities, you wouldn't want to be using a tripod.

IS on wide angles is actually a relatively new idea. None of the pro lenses on Canon or Nikon have them unless they are telephoto.

The Olympus has wireless TTL off camera capabilities, what you would need to do is hold your flash in your left hand point to ceiling and your right hand and shoot.

[AnttiV]

Originally Posted by songs2001

IS was originally designed for static things with long lenses. People that liked to take pictures of birds chilling on trees for example. If you stalking birds or celebrities, you wouldn't want to be using a tripod.

IS on wide angles is actually a relatively new idea. None of the pro lenses on Canon or Nikon have them unless they are telephoto.

The Olympus has wireless TTL off camera capabilities, what you would need to do is hold your flash in your left hand point to ceiling and your right hand and shoot.

I didn't know that, thanks. Yes, for celebrities it sounds like IS is way better than dragging some big tripod with you :D IMO, less with birds if you're already carrying a long telephoto. Just shoot from farther away. Maybe for those times you don't have a very long to frame the shot, but that's much closer to shooting action than static scenes anyways, at least I think so.

Yes, I've heard Oly had wireless TTL. And honestly I can't fathom why Panny didn't go the same route and add wireless to G3. It can't cost THAT much.

A tilt-and-swivel flash unit is quite high in my "list of things to buy soon(tm)", but at those prices it'll have to wait. Possibly only after the 45-200mm.

Now I can't stop thinking why Panny doesn't have wireless TTL.. does ANY Panny camera have that? (GH2?) It seems like an obvious feature in that class.

[songs2001]

Originally Posted by AnttiV

I didn't know that, thanks. Yes, for celebrities it sounds like IS is way better than dragging some big tripod with you :D IMO, less with birds if you're already carrying a long telephoto. Just shoot from farther away. Maybe for those times you don't have a very long to frame the shot, but that's much closer to shooting action than static scenes anyways, at least I think so.

Yes, I've heard Oly had wireless TTL. And honestly I can't fathom why Panny didn't go the same route and add wireless to G3. It can't cost THAT much.

A tilt-and-swivel flash unit is quite high in my "list of things to buy soon(tm)", but at those prices it'll have to wait. Possibly only after the 45-200mm.

Now I can't stop thinking why Panny doesn't have wireless TTL.. does ANY Panny camera have that? (GH2?) It seems like an obvious feature in that class.

No Panny has that and I believe with the Nikon 1 you don't even have even a real hot shoe, so you can't even mount Nikon flashes on them to do commander mode. So Olympus is it, only one that has IBIS and a flash commander.

The flash commander option is best thing Olympus has going, I'm surprised it doesn't get talked about more often. But then again I never got around to getting a TTL flash for it either.

[troll]

Originally Posted by AnttiV

I've never before had an IS capable system (just lusted after one), but know that I do I really like it. But I have to quickly say that it is not for everyone. For landscape/portrait shooting I'd most likely turn it off. But I mostly shoot kids playing in bad lightning, inside and/or evenings. It really starts to matter when you can't go more open with the lens and shutter speed approaches 1/20 or even slower.

That was the strange piece that started the argument. Any kind of image stabilization is designed to help with static scenes, it can't freeze moving subjects. It's obvious for anyone who has at least basic understanding of IS, no matter lens-based or IBIS. Therefore people shooting "landscapes" are the ones that benefit from it the most (cause there's mostly no movement in the scene and you can get all those extra stops advantage from IS) and people that shoot running kids indoors are the ones that benefit from IS the least (cause you can only freeze the motion by using faster shutter speed). But you somehow brought it all the other way around, which seemed really weird. It's clear now that you don't know much about IS, but at that moment it wasn't obvious and the statement about IS not useful for landscape shooting but helping with kids indoors sounded really strange.

The only solution for indoor shooting of moving subjects has always been a flash, that's what they're for: a simple, compact and cheap device that brings more light into the scene and freezes the motion. For those individuals with 12 rooms and kids constantly teleporting between 10 of them there's still a simple way I mentioned before that lots of people have been doing all this time yet you tried to ignore it — putting flash into the hotshoe and pointing it at the ceiling. This way you can freeze the motion — something that no image stabilization system can do, and at the same time get a very soft, flattering light.

[troll]

Originally Posted by songs2001

No Panny has that

Now that sucks, didn't know it. No high-speed sync and off-camera flashes with Panasonic bodies then...

Originally Posted by AnttiV

A tilt-and-swivel flash unit is quite high in my "list of things to buy soon(tm)", but at those prices it'll have to wait.

There are cheap TTL solutions (like Cactus AF50) and high-quality yet affordable Metz flashes out there. You don't have to buy expensive Olympus or Panasonic flashes.

[AnttiV]

Originally Posted by troll

Now that sucks, didn't know it. No high-speed sync and off-camera flashes with Panasonic bodies then...

Me neither and that does truly suck. When you think about it, it seems kinda weird that they don't have this, seeing as Panny has almost all other features packed inside their cameras. And target audience for them would be prime suspect for that feature. So, Panny, for 2012 - wireless TTL?

Originally Posted by troll

There are cheap TTL solutions (like Cactus AF50) and high-quality yet affordable Metz flashes out there. You don't have to buy expensive Olympus or Panasonic flashes.

I know, I've been eyeing the Metz 36, which is one of the only flashes available to me that's designed for m43. Our local (in-town) photography store is quite high on their mountain and ONLY sells Canon/Nikon/Oly (and Sigma lenses for Canon/Nikon). Most in-country mail-order stores either have REALLY high prices or don't sell m43 at all. off-shore shops have to add VAT and S&H when shipping to Finland, and that rises the total quite high. But flash is on the list and probably next / after a longer lens.

ps. I'll continue that other conversation a bit later, but I'll make a new thread for it so we don't hijack this even more. I'll post a pointer to that thread here when I'm done.

[meyerweb]

Originally Posted by troll

Now that sucks, didn't know it. No high-speed sync and off-camera flashes with Panasonic bodies then...

High speed sync works fine with Panny bodies. My Olympus FL36 flash on a GH2 supports high speed sync just fine.

For off camera flash, there are lots of solutions. Panasonic, Canon and 3rd party off shoe cords work fine. If you want multiple and/or wireless flash, there are 3rd party solutions from relatively cheap to absurdly expensive.

Originally Posted by songs2001

The flash commander option is best thing Olympus has going, I'm surprised it doesn't get talked about more often. But then again I never got around to getting a TTL flash for it either.

And that's why it doesn't get talked about more. The simple truth is that few people use external flashes these days, and even fewer do remote or multi-flash controls. I've probably used the multiple remote flash capability of my Canon gear 3 times in the last 10 years.